D&D 4E 4E sword and sorcery..

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the great thing with 4e for doing a setting like this is simply party balance is easy to achieve. I mean it was simple to run nothing but a bunch of fighters and rogues in 1e/2e and get the "not very magical" aspect down, but that sort of party wasn't very effective either. The 4e equivalent is pretty much on a par with any other standard party so there's a lot less tweaking needed elsewhere.

I think you'll have fun with it.

 

[Garthanos]

So my suggested classes would be Artificer, Barbarian, Fighter, (Monk), Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warlord

DC

Warlocks are S&S out of the box... but give the right accessories and skin any Sorceror/Wizard sideways and they can have the feel to nearly match a Warlock.

Feat - Abberant Mark of Madness?
Bloodmage - Paragon path
Feat - Arcane Familiar Skull?

Witches I have built used Malediction Invokers to good ends.

For me the key on player character design is having players that get your genre.... it doesnt have to be hardwired.

 

[bagger245]

Nice thread. I too am thinking of running something similar and want to tone down the magical aspects of the game.

1/ Ditch the standard 4e magic items -- no more +X anything. Instead, use the bonuses per level provided in the DMG. I can elaborate on this if you'd like.

Can you elaborate more or point me to the page?

 

[sfedi]

I don't think ditching other PSs is the answer...the focus could be more on concept.

You're right, I was too harsh on that.

All the martial classes work: They are pure training.

100% agree, of course.

-- Warlock works well because this is the "mortals knowing things they shouldn't"

True

-- Shaman has a strong presence in many low magic concepts because the power (again) is external to the character.

The problem I have with the Shaman is the Spirit. It's too flashy for a S&S campaign, IMO.

-- Barbarian has few overtly supernatural abilities so it is a good fit too.

Yes, barbarians fit perfectly.

-- Artificer (for all that it seems tied to magical items) is the easiest arcane class to reskin for low magic feel as an alchemist / tinkerer

I didn't think about that, you're right. It's the less "magical" of the arcanes.

-- Paladin can work well because few of their powers are "laser" powers.

Yes, but his mark is pure magic.

-- Monk works but may not go well with the theme

Agree.

So my suggested classes would be Artificer, Barbarian, Fighter, (Monk), Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warlord

After what you said, I change my recommendations as follows:

Suggested classes:
Barbarian, Fighter, (Monk), Ranger, Rogue, Warlord

But at most one PC can be of any of these classes:
Artificer, Warlock, Sorcerer, Wizard

Note that the area you really lose is Controllers but controllers are also the easiest role to do without. You simple account for the lack of mass minion death and use lower level minions than the part average when you send a mass of them after the party.

Yeah, I think the same.

Another thing that would be nice is to have rules on corruption of magic, demons, etc that MAY keep arcane classes on check. But this rule is mainly for reinforcing the genre.

Keep an eye on rituals. Some may not be appropiate.

 

[Nifft]

Can you elaborate more or point me to the page?

DMG 2, p.138... but it's incomplete.

They recommend you give +1 to attack and defenses once per 5 levels (duh), but they seem to have forgotten about extra crit damage. Here's what I'd suggest.

At each level 1-4, you gain one of the following (you get one of each, but you pick the order):

• +1 to attack
• +1 to AC
• +1 to F/R/W
• +1d6 damage on a crit

Repeat this choice at level ranges 6-9, 11-14, 16-19, 21-24 and 26-29.

Gain the following based on what armor you wear (to compensate for the Masterwork Armor you're not giving them):
Cloth, Leather, Hide: +1 AC at level 15 & 25
Chain, Scale, Plate: +1 AC at levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 & 30

Now, you still give out magic weapons & armor, but they have no plusses. They only have properties & powers. So a Flaming Longsword would just be a longsword that deals fire damage on a crit (according to the PC's inherent "extra dice on a crit" that he bought for leveling up), that can do all fire damage at-will, and that has a daily power. A vicious weapons would turn the PC's inherent Xd6 into Xd12.

Same thing for defensive items: a PC could find Black Iron armor and enjoy the resist 5 fire & necrotic, but if he loses it and puts on regular armor, his AC doesn't change.

Magic stuff becomes nice to have, but is no longer mathematically necessary to keep pace with monster defenses.

At levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30, you can also give out the powers & properties from a magic item -- not a weapon, but maybe armor. For example, at level 5 you might give the Barbarian a permanent +1d6 damage when he charges (the effect of a Horned Helm, which is a Heroic item from around 5th level). Maybe it's the blessing of Crom; maybe he's just had a lot of practice charging. You can pick the powers or you can let your players pore through the loot books and make a "wish list".

- - -

Consumables and rituals are a bit of a problem, since they both assume your party will have geometrically increasing wealth. On the other hand, effectively getting rid of high-level rituals seems to fit the genre just fine, and consumables are easy enough to just ignore -- my group never bothered with potions of healing after 3rd level or so, nor do we use a lot of alchemical items or reagents.

- - -

IMHO it's important to break, steal, consume, ruin, corrupt, corrode, or otherwise destroy equipment -- magical and mundane alike -- to emphasize how wealth is easy come & easy go. If you destroy a weapon during combat, make sure your players know about the stuff on page 42 of the DMG ("improvised attacks").

Anyway, good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Chainsaw]

Great suggestions from everyone - thanks again for contributing your time and thoughts. I think Garthanos really hit on something I hadn't considered - that if the players "get" sword and sorcery, there will be less need to hardwire/force it mechanically. I'll have to make sure my introductory materials create the right atmosphere and that I'm disciplined in my descriptions and story elements.

As for classes, we'll definitely go with: fighter, rogue, barbarian, warlord, ranger and warlock. I'll have to double check the shaman and artificer, because I'm not as familiar with them, but they have potential as well. I would like to find a way to make the wizard, cleric and sorcerer work too, especially if I can think of a flavorful and fun "danger" to associate with magic usage (not too punitive, but interesting). Sometimes I think that "sword and sorcery" gets reduced to just "sword," so I want to have some sorcery mixed in there - but it has to be rare and scary (at least among commoners).

As for races, obviously we'll do human. We may reskin the dwarf as a mountain breed human and the elf as a deep forest breed human - this retains the mechanical variation without disrupting the atmosphere. With a good backstory, I'd even be inclined to allow something like a "gnome" or even a "goliath" as a sort of straggler from the "dead races of long ago." Consider that Wagner's Kane was actually one of the first men - he's often described as being physically different from normal men upon close inspection. In one story, Kane even briefly teams up with a giant that he finds wandering in the desert. They lament the changing times and the rise of man together, heh. In other stories, he fights frogmen, werewolves, vampires and ghouls.

On the spectrum, I suppose I'm in between Wagner and Howard rather than say, Howard and GRR Martin, so cheating a bit toward allowing the weird/Cthuloid/demonic as long as it's tucked away in dark places that commoners never, ever go.

 

[DreamChaser]

I would like to find a way to make the wizard, cleric and sorcerer work too, especially if I can think of a flavorful and fun "danger" to associate with magic usage (not too punitive, but interesting). Sometimes I think that "sword and sorcery" gets reduced to just "sword," so I want to have some sorcery mixed in there - but it has to be rare and scary (at least among commoners).

This is a place where RP penalties come in handy. They don't gimp the character / player system-wise but they create a sense of story.

Ideas that link in with the feel include:

Wizard / Warlock = must have familiar and this familiar is not an ally but a servant / spy of a demonic / otherworldly master. Much fun can be had attempting to distract / bribe / etc. the familiar when the caster works at cross purposes with the patron.

Also, a page out of Dragon Age could work here. In a world where magic comes from demons, society would censure its practice.

Divine = allow multiclassing into the divine classes to reflect that there is a divine presence and they gain some mysterious powers that may be training and may be divine inspiration. No full divine classes.

Shaman = Make the spirit companion a physical creature instead of a spirit. This both strengthens and weakens it. Treat it as a summoned creature with all the positives / negatives. If it is killed, it is incapacitated by not actually dead unless the bad guy makes a coup d' grace.

Thoughts?

DC

 

[sfedi]

Nice ideas DreamChaser.

 

[Chainsaw]

Great ideas DC! I will likely end up implementing some or all of those.

 

[Nifft]

Wizard / Warlock = must have familiar and this familiar is not an ally but a servant / spy of a demonic / otherworldly master. Much fun can be had attempting to distract / bribe / etc. the familiar when the caster works at cross purposes with the patron.

Nothing bad about this, so long as it's not a mechanical penalty for arcane classes. You'll have to figure out how it interacts with the Familiar feats if you allow those.

Divine = allow multiclassing into the divine classes to reflect that there is a divine presence and they gain some mysterious powers that may be training and may be divine inspiration. No full divine classes.

Eh, you don't really need them -- it's not like 3e where only one kind of spellcaster was allowed to be the healer.

That said, there's also nothing wrong with allowing some classes in as multiclass-only.

Shaman = Make the spirit companion a physical creature instead of a spirit. This both strengthens and weakens it. Treat it as a summoned creature with all the positives / negatives. If it is killed, it is incapacitated by not actually dead unless the bad guy makes a coup d' grace.

This is a bad idea. Look at how many of the Shaman's powers depend on the spirit companion being on the front lines, and also depend on it not being permanently killable.

Seriously, this is like destroying a Fighter's weapon and armor on a critical hit. You're screwing the class over.

- - -

Looking over the class power list, IMHO Bard would be a good addition too. Their at-wills are all of the non-flashy variety, as are some of their powers, and they complement the Warlord quite well.

Cheers, -- N