D&D 4E 4E Weapon speed is back?

[Korgoth]

There's a lot less "sword fireballs" than some would have you believe. Aside from Desert Wind (which yes, has lots of magical-sword-fire stuff) all the Disciplines can be explained however you want. A Diamond Mind guy with a rapier is all about lining up your attacks and precision strikes; there's nothing inherently magical about it, unless you want it to be.

That's cool. I'm into "niche". Fighters should fight, Wizards should... well, let's say "cast magic".

I did see an interview with one of the designers saying that they want the Wizard, for example, to never really run out of magical power so that he's always blasting... that it's rather un-wizardly to pull out a crossbow and start plinking.

I'm not opposed to that sort of change, either. I guess all of that is bound up with the "per encounter balancing" that I've yet to fully digest.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'd be on board with some combat maneuvers. Sounds like it could be a fun mechanic. Though I understand that ToB: Bo9S had a bunch of "sword magic" like shooting sword fireballs or something.

Making martial characters sword-mages or wuxia-masters would be an absolute deal-breaker for me. But just having spiffy combat maneuvers ("I'll do a smash this turn" or "I'll try for a hamstring") could be fun if they don't go overboard on the fiddlyness.

Bo9S's actual manuevers and feats range from the completely non-magical (most of it) to stuff that's pure magical silly business (like Salamander Charge, where you charge leaving a trail of magical fire and can make lots of turns whilst charging and so on). I glanced through it recently, though, and to be honest, only 2 of the 9 paths are "ooooh magic"-type Wuxia/Swordmage stuff, Desert Wind and the Shadowy one (strangely, the shadowy one offends my sensibilities way less).

From a mechanical point of view, you could easily do 90% of the manuevers and stances without invoking the supernatural - that's just the way Bo9S chose to style it, so even if 4E is styled very much like Bo9S mechanically (manuevers, stances, etc.), that doesn't mean your Fighter is going to be screaming foward leaving trails of fire and draining people's life-energy with hits.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I really like the idea of giving each weapon access to certain maneuvers or feats that others don't get.

How they do this while reducing complexity and prep time should be very interesting, though.

Were fighters really ever eating your prep time? Having to make 3-4 additional choices while making a fighter isn't bad if they can cut out a couple dozen of the 600 choices you have to make to roll up a skill monkey, mage, or multiclass character.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'd be on board with some combat maneuvers. Sounds like it could be a fun mechanic. Though I understand that ToB: Bo9S had a bunch of "sword magic" like shooting sword fireballs or something.

Making martial characters sword-mages or wuxia-masters would be an absolute deal-breaker for me. But just having spiffy combat maneuvers ("I'll do a smash this turn" or "I'll try for a hamstring") could be fun if they don't go overboard on the fiddlyness.

There are 2 schools that do that. And they are exclusive to one class, which is a mystic warrior. Similar to a bladesinger, fighter/mage, or whatever you want to call it. The crusader is essentially a variant paladin, and as such has divine powered abilities. If you dont have a problem with iconic fighter/mages or paladins or clerics, you really shouldnt have a beef with those 2.

The warblade is essentially a mundane guy. His maneuvers are stuff like "hit 2 people as a standard action", "hit a guy so hard he might drop his weapon", "hit a guy REALLY hard as a full round action), etc.

 

[Shadeydm]

I would be excited by the return of weapon speed as a meaningful way to balance lighter, lower damage weapons. Sounds too good to be true.

 

[Mallus]

What's included for the first time -- or so it appears-- are weapon-dependent sets of moves specifically for fighters. Which, from a game perspective, beats the heck of several pages worth of mechanically indistinguishable weapons. Or the old weapon speed factor rules, whose actual use is only rumored.

 

[Darkwolf71]

I'd be on board with some combat maneuvers. Sounds like it could be a fun mechanic. Though I understand that ToB: Bo9S had a bunch of "sword magic" like shooting sword fireballs or something.

Making martial characters sword-mages or wuxia-masters would be an absolute deal-breaker for me. But just having spiffy combat maneuvers ("I'll do a smash this turn" or "I'll try for a hamstring") could be fun if they don't go overboard on the fiddlyness.

I love ToB and the classes it introduces. However, I do not want to see the traditional no-magic ability style fighter go the way of the Dodo. If every class has some kind of magic ability... That is where, IMHO, you cross a line and can honestly say the game is no longer D&D. It would be a deal-breaker for me as well.

 

[Cadfan]

I think its basically guaranteed at this point that even the basic fighter will have to decide not only who he whacks with a sword, but how he whacks them. And I think that can only be a good thing. Power Attack and Combat Expertise were an insufficient amount of tactical options.

Don't hate on that general idea just because you don't like the Swordsage. And don't try to deny other people their swordsage just because you don't like it. We aren't out to kill off the non magical fighter.

 

[Mallus]

Making martial characters sword-mages or wuxia-masters would be an absolute deal-breaker for me.

These kinds of powers were traditionally available to D&D martial types in the form of items. All BotNS did was locate them in the character rather than his gear. In a lot of cases it's functionally the same.

 

[GreatLemur]

There's a lot less "sword fireballs" than some would have you believe. Aside from Desert Wind (which yes, has lots of magical-sword-fire stuff) all the Disciplines can be explained however you want. A Diamond Mind guy with a rapier is all about lining up your attacks and precision strikes; there's nothing inherently magical about it, unless you want it to be.

Yeah, I've never really understood the popular perception of the Tome of Battle mechanics as being full of crazy-ass wire-fu stuff. You've got the Crusader, who's a Paladin type who calls on divine power; you've got the Swordsage, who's an arcane warrior hybrid with both magical and martial abilities; and you've got the Warblade, who's a strictly mundane melee guy. He's a "martial artist" in the sense that anyone who knows how to use a sword really well is a martial artist.

Maybe there's some high-level stuff that gets really over the top, but the Warblade in my game has moves that let him sacrifice AC for attack bonuses, or attack two targets with one blow, that sort of thing. Not exactly stuff that's mechanically or conceptually incompatible with the things Fighters were already doing.