4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

That doesn't really make a difference. Everyone is equally guessing, but Krust does so with an air of authority that he can't actually have unless he's a playtester and has been holding out on us.

I'm not a playtester, just a really good guesser.

For instance, from what I understand a Minion monster goes down in 1 hit, no matter what.

Incorrect. The kobold (Level 1) minion went down with any damage taken, but the Vampire Spawn Minion (Level 6) actually had 10 hit points.

And here, Krust is saying that at level 35 (5 levels out of 4E core), an Anakim 'becomes' a Minion monster. :\

Not exactly. The Anakim will need two sets of stats. One for the Elite Brute and one for the Minion. A Level 23 Elite monster is worth the same XP as a Level 35 Minion monster. So its a simple conversion process.

It's just presumptuousness par excellence.

My specialty.

 

[GQuail]

Well its about 15% of the Monster Manual, thats quite a 'chunk o' change'.

Well, we may just have to agree to disagree here - because I don't see it as a particularly representative sample of the book as a whole. And since we have minimal PHB info it sounds a lot to me like working without enough pieces.

You make it sound like I am statting out 4E monsters as we speak, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I gotta confess, at least part of my confusion comes from the fact that Ascension is still being delayed. I know you aren 't doing a huge amount of work on this thread and all, but when you are still working on a product originally slated for July 2006 (and when your own website still says August 2007 as it's release date) you have to realise why I seem very skeptical of any amount of work being applied to the next edition, especially when I perceive there not being much information released for this edition yet.

I'd like to think of it as an educated guess.

As for doing something more valuable, brainstorming is a very useful tool for a designer.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I'm just not seeing enough parts in play yet for any of this to have any real merit to it rather than just pulling numbers out of the air, but obviously you and others disagree and are having a fun ol' thread.

Agreed, I got off pretty easy from you guys. But I'll make it up to you all.

Nothing would make me happier.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Well, we may just have to agree to disagree here - because I don't see it as a particularly representative sample of the book as a whole.

Well it has revealed more heroic tier monsters than paragon tier, and more paragon tier than epic tier, but that in itself is probably representative of the book as a whole - because they have stated there will be more lower level monster than higher level ones...just like every monster book ever released then.

And since we have minimal PHB info it sounds a lot to me like working without enough pieces.

Had I turned my attention to something PHB relevant that might have held true. But I simply speculated as to the levels and roles of my Abominations (monsters) based on the information that quasi-deities are folded into the Epic Tier and that there are three classes of divininty Demigod, Lesser God and Greater God. Therefore with the Amilictli representative of a CR roughly that of a Demigod we have a potential Abomination level span of 21-40. With Abomination Hit Dice related to size we can therefore adjudicate anything from Huge down is Epic Tier and anything from Gargantuan up is Demigod tier. The rest was child's play.

I gotta confess, at least part of my confusion comes from the fact that Ascension is still being delayed. I know you aren 't doing a huge amount of work on this thread and all, but when you are still working on a product originally slated for July 2006 (and when your own website still says August 2007 as it's release date) you have to realise why I seem very skeptical of any amount of work being applied to the next edition, especially when I perceive there not being much information released for this edition yet.

Other than 10 minutes of brainstorming here and there I haven't done any work on the next edition.

I just happen to post snippets of that brainstorming here for people to comment on/look over. But I guess if thats going to cause a commotion...

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I'm just not seeing enough parts in play yet for any of this to have any real merit to it rather than just pulling numbers out of the air, but obviously you and others disagree and are having a fun ol' thread.

Just trying to fill the void of an otherwise slow news day.

Nothing would make me happier.

Not even one million dollars?

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey hey, UK!

Incorrect. The kobold (Level 1) minion went down with any damage taken, but the Vampire Spawn Minion (Level 6) actually had 10 hit points.

Okay, a level 6 Minion has 10 HP while a level 6 brute has over 80. Looks like a one-hit kill to me, but it's not how I said it was.

A Level 23 Elite monster is worth the same XP as a Level 35 Minion monster. So its a simple conversion process.

PURE conjecture, am I right? No 35th-level minions have been previewed. And i strongly doubt stripping away the multiple actions/special attacks to move from an Elite to a Minion is really all that "simple"; it's probably got a tad more to it that that.

Look, Krust, let me be frank: your track record is rather sullied with this whole Ascension mess. The idea that you're jumping ship now (Ascension's continued delays only supporting this idea) only colors the circumstances, especially with the Leaning Tower of Power that the IHB really is being your main real resume item (stable at the base, obviously skewed the higher up you go, almost immediately).

When you start on about how you've sussed 4E XP and how you can already guesstimate how to convert between massively disparate monster types sans any real mechanical examples of the process... when you 'tell' us, with faux authority, how XP or HP are calculated... it's sketchy, even if it may be in the ballpark, and it would take a lot to put any faith back in me, man. I'm sad to say that, but it's the way I've come to feel in the past two years.

At the end of the day, though, I think your design mentality will fit better in a 4E framework. Less imprisonment to the subsystems in monster design, Epic Inside, etc. But the idea that you can 'guess' how the game works at the stage is, well... I need some salt for that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey, UK!

Hi Pssthpok mate!

Okay, a level 6 Minion has 10 HP while a level 6 brute has over 80. Looks like a one-hit kill to me, but it's not how I said it was.

I'm not convinced that 10 hp is correct anyway.

PURE conjecture, am I right? No 35th-level minions have been previewed.

Irrelevant to the determination of the EXP for a speculated 35th-level Minion.

And i strongly doubt stripping away the multiple actions/special attacks to move from an Elite to a Minion is really all that "simple"; it's probably got a tad more to it that that.

Agreed, which is why I haven't actually even thought about special attacks or so on and so forth at this point.

Look, Krust, let me be frank: your track record is rather sullied with this whole Ascension mess.

Agreed, its been a terrible state of affairs.

The idea that you're jumping ship now (Ascension's continued delays only supporting this idea) only colors the circumstances,

I'm not jumping ship on anything. I'm still working on 3.5 for the forseeable future, and even though I like what I see with 4E, I'd still make the books for both systems for as long as they continue to sell.

Ascension's delays are nothing to do with 4th Edition, simply my own subconscious procrastination rubbing shoulders with my part time job and an imagination that outsrips my capability.

especially with the Leaning Tower of Power that the IHB really is being your main real resume item (stable at the base, obviously skewed the higher up you go, almost immediately).

Not sure I follow you?

When you start on about how you've sussed 4E XP and how you can already guesstimate how to convert between massively disparate monster types sans any real mechanical examples of the process...

Seems pretty straightforward to me (and what we are talking about is simply a conversion of projected level, not a full or even partial monster conversion).

With quasi-deity folded into the Epic Tier (21st-30th) and a projected Demigod Tier (31st-40th) above that, it doesn't take a genius to deduce Abominations will range from about 21st-40th as standard monsters. With Elite monsters worth 4 more levels (in terms of EXP) and solo monsters worth 9 more levels than standard; the exercise becomes simplicity itself.

when you 'tell' us, with faux authority, how XP or HP are calculated... it's sketchy, even if it may be in the ballpark, and it would take a lot to put any faith back in me, man. I'm sad to say that, but it's the way I've come to feel in the past two years.

Lack of faith in me to deliver on a release date I can understand (thats my Achilles' Heel), lack of faith in me to be able to decipher the underlying math and create the best possible immortal rules for that system I can't understand.

At the end of the day, though, I think your design mentality will fit better in a 4E framework. Less imprisonment to the subsystems in monster design, Epic Inside, etc.

I think so.

But the idea that you can 'guess' how the game works at the stage is, well... I need some salt for that.

When I look at RPG systems I just see these lines of glowing green code.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

The following has been posted in the 4E forum, via http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15430696&postcount=3276

Maaaybe. We haven't statted up a deity for fightin' just yet. The toughest thing currently in the game is Orcus, who's around level 33 -- so he's a tough fight for level 30 characters. Of course, Orcus is about the toughest demon, and there are other demon princes who sit in the high 20's.

We've kicked around the idea that a greater god like Moradin could handle Orcus, but couldn't handle Orcus and Demogorgon together. Hence, the greater gods are cautious about picking fights with demons, because you never know if Demogorgon and Grazzt are hiding just around the corner, waiting to jump out and ambush you. That would suggest that Moradin (or any greater god, really) is maybe something like level 37 or 38. He's going to be out of the reach of even 30th-level PCs. That's why I said that taking on a god might involve a whole chain of epic quests to line things up just right--to find the weapon, the place, and the time where you catch a Bane or Shar at their weakest.

So, to sum up: Any high-epic party will likely do in an archdevil, exarch, or demon prince somewhere in their last four or five levels of adventuring, possibly even two or three if the DM sets up the adventures that way. But taking out a greater power is probably something you only do once, and even then, you only do it if the DM decides to make it the theme of the last big adventure your characters have as mortal heroes. It's hardly working your way through Deities & Demigods in alphabetical order.

my response...

Assuming Orcus is a solo monster, then Level 33 would be roughly equal to a Level 42 Standard monster (in terms of EXP). While Moradin, at 37th, would be akin to 46th level.

Interesting that he suggests a dynamic of Demogorgon + Orcus to deal with Moradin (a 4 level difference assuming all three are solo encounters). That presents each 'step-up' (Lesser Deity to Greater Deity in this case) as a jump of power akin to an Elite monster vs. a Standard monster. I was sort of thinking it would be more like Solo Monster vs. Standard Monster.

Reading between the lines he half infers that WotC won't be doing any Immortal Rules, though they may be doing a book or books that include deity stats.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi guys!

With the recent tier structure news I have been thinking I would boil down my own tiers even further, which should increase interaction and more closely parallel WotC's ideas.

So it'll probably be something like:

31-40 = Demigod Tier (effectively Quasi-Deity from 31-35)
41-50 = God Tier (effectively Lesser Deity from 41-45)
51-60 = Overgod Tier (effectively Elder One from 51-55)

The above would be for PCs. For Solo Monsters it would be:

22-31 = Demigod
32-41 = God
42-51 = Overgod

So...

Orcus = Level 33 Solo Monster would be about the same XP as a Level 42 standard monster/character.
Moradin = Level 38 Solo Monster would be about Level 47 as a standard monster/character.

 

[Center-of-All]

So I take it you'll be doing a 60 rather than 100 level structure under this new classification.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Center-of-all!

So I take it you'll be doing a 60 rather than 100 level structure under this new classification.

Not sure yet. Certainly I'll be concentrating more on the 21-60 area. I'll definately have some 60+ stuff, but at the moment I forsee that as mostly for monsters for the 51-60 tier to battle.

The problem with just going all the way up is that by the time you get there you have fought everything. So its then up to me to find something else to fight. Then players will want to be those things. Then I'll have to find something else for them to fight, then they'll want to be those things etc. Its a deadly spiral.

At the moment even though I allow Time Lords and High Lords, theres nothing really for them to fight except other Time Lords and High Lords. Which seems unsatisfactory to me.

Hypothetically, a 61-70 Tier (for First Ones/Demiurges) and a 71-80 Tier for (Time Lords/High Lords) may be plausible. But for the moment lets just assume its going to be up to 60th. I only know of two gaming groups who play above Overgod status as it is (though I am sure there are a few others).

 

[Alzrius]

The problem with just going all the way up is that by the time you get there you have fought everything. So its then up to me to find something else to fight. Then players will want to be those things. Then I'll have to find something else for them to fight, then they'll want to be those things etc. Its a deadly spiral.

At the moment even though I allow Time Lords and High Lords, theres nothing really for them to fight except other Time Lords and High Lords. Which seems unsatisfactory to me.

What, the Garganaut and the Infinitaur - to say nothing of the other Anomalies - won't make the transition to 4E? (Though I suppose that's possible, since we have yet to see them in 3.5 )