4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Anabstercorian]

I would propose that you take a 10 level stint of a given portfolio, and can 'multiclass' in to another portfolio with a 'portfolio feat'. You'd need to have 4 builds for each portfolio - a Controller, a Leader, a Striker, and a Blocker.

Of course, I've put much less thought in to this than you have.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

The 3.5 destinies don't seem all that customizable, although that doesn't mean the 4e ones won't be. If less customizing is the standard though, perhaps each portfolio... or at least group of portfolios should have it's own destiny. By group of portfolios, I mean you could have one destiny for Elemental control (including Fire, Cold, Lightning, etc), and then another for Body/Mind perfection (Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha), and another for Nature stuff (Fertility, Healing, etc) and so forth.

Its possible that I may group the Portfolios (loosely) by Plane/Dimension, though I don't really see any overt purpose for that.

It seems less interesting to just have one "Ascension" destiny, especially if EVERYONE has to take it in order to get to the next tier.

An Ascension destiny is just a way to Ascend, I already have three in Ascension (Power, Glory and Resonance) which seem to roughly parallel Blade of Ragnarok (wish they had called it Death Dealer), Demigod and Force of Nature.

Playing an item could be really cool, and I was planning something along those lines for Grimoire.

The Eternal Hero stuff is excellent, though the 'Rebirth' thing may be folded into immortals as is.

Mythic Shadow sounds interesting. I wonder if these 'immortals' would need to sustain themselves by killing others?

Not exactly sure how the whole 'Hibernate' thing could be made to work for an ongoing campaign.

I think other epic destinies might involve Lichedom, Possession, Transcendentalism etc.

I wonder how the Epic Destinies match up with the Planes:

Artifact Lord: ?
Blade of Ragnarok: Elemental Chaos
Demigod: Astral Plane
Eternal Hero: Time (Dimension)
Force of Nature: Feywild
Mythic Shadow: Initially seems like Entropy (and thus Shadowfell), but perhaps is more Fate based.

Hrm. Actually, that's another thought to consider. Perhaps the rules should reflect the ability for ANY epic destiny to ascend, not just the ones specifically focused on ascending. The one about becoming invisible, for instance, where you're a shaft of sunlight or a breath of wind or a shadow on the wall at all times, just listening to people tell your stories until even you believe them... that's a really cool destiny, and could work QUITE well into the Immortal's Handbook. But how would it MESH is the question...

Indeed.

Going back to 3.5, perhaps:

Entropy: Mythic Shadow - Fate Points?
World: Artifact Lord - Experience Points?
World: Force of Nature - Resonance Points
Astral: Eternal Hero -
Elemental: Blade of Ragnarok - Power Points
Outer: Demigod - Worship Points
Far Place: -

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

I would propose that you take a 10 level stint of a given portfolio, and can 'multiclass' in to another portfolio with a 'portfolio feat'. You'd need to have 4 builds for each portfolio - a Controller, a Leader, a Striker, and a Blocker.

Of course, I've put much less thought in to this than you have.

Well I only hit on the idea yesterday.

But I was thinking along the lines that there would be four encounter and four daily powers per portfolio. One encounter and daily for each of the roles (controller, striker etc.)

You gain a new encounter power on the 1st-level of each '5' and a new daily power on the 5th-level of each '5', with a Utility on the 2nd-level of each '5'.

So if you wanted to stay solely a 'striker' you would have to branch into other portfolios. Or you could stay in the same portfolio but become much more multifaceted.

Of course this means each portfolio power may have either 2 or 4 different damage outputs, but I think thats easier than creating totally new powers.

I realised early on that simply having portfolios as new classes wouldn't cleanly work because you would need about 100 different powers per portfolio. 100 powers x 46 portfolios means 4600 powers with about 10 powers (at best) per page thats 460 pages simply of powers which is utterly bonkers. Not to mention most of the powers would be retreads anyway.

A more satisfying solution presented itself however...and all it needs is about 13-14 powers per portfolio (4 encounter, 4 daily, 4 utility and 1-2 at-will) and maybe a few extra features thrown in. Thats do-able.

The idea behind the 5-level Portfolio(s) allows a full 20-level Portfolio to cover all the roles. But if you still want to keep to the same specific roles then you only have to branch out.

 

[Fieari]

Well, a 10-level portfolio would allow for "Double Portfolio" situations. A single portfolio is 5, double is 10.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Well, a 10-level portfolio would allow for "Double Portfolio" situations. A single portfolio is 5, double is 10.

I see it more in terms of a 20-level run of the same Portfolio is 1 portfolio, while a 5-level stint is 1/4.

So you could describe immortals as:

Quasi-god of Fire (potential 1 portfolio)
Demigod of War (potential 2 portfolios)
God of War and Winter (potential 3 portfolios)
Greater God of Magic, Sun and Wealth (potential 4 portfolios)

Orcus*
(Demon) God of Death
42nd-level Immortal (30th-level Cleric, 12 levels of Death Portfolio)

*As a PC

Odin*
Greater God of Sky, Magic and Battle
50th-level Immortal (20th-level Wizard, 10th-level Ranger, 10 levels of Sky Portfolio, 5 levels of War portfolio, 5 levels of Magic portfolio)

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

So, U_K, now that Epic Destinys have been revealed (although admittedly not in much detail), do you think this impacts epic-post-30th play in 4E?
Also, I was familiarizing myself with the 4E rules from the prerelease document, and man, that Phane is nasty. When it says ~490 HP, they really mean 1000-2000 HP. Insubstantial means they take half damage, and it can weaken it's enemies, causing them do deal 1/2 damage; Together, this is crazy-evil. (Something I would do)
It looks to me like at immortal-levels in 4E, the game will be much less about how much damage you do (since all classes do about the same damage) and more focused on the neat tricks and nasty combinations of abilities you have.
It also seems that 4E immortals will likely have super-long combats. All sorts of ways to heal 1/4 - all (archmage) of your life means dieing is the least of your worries.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Ltheb matey!

So, U_K, now that Epic Destinys have been revealed (although admittedly not in much detail), do you think this impacts epic-post-30th play in 4E?

The traits do make the characters very durable, but I am thinking that any defence will have an opposed offence.

Also, I was familiarizing myself with the 4E rules from the prerelease document, and man, that Phane is nasty. When it says ~490 HP, they really mean 1000-2000 HP. Insubstantial means they take half damage, and it can weaken it's enemies, causing them do deal 1/2 damage; Together, this is crazy-evil. (Something I would do)

Yes, I also think someone mentioned that the way the text is worded the Phane gets to make an opportunity attack against everyone each round (or something like that). So while it initially looks a bit feeble, its helluva tough.

It looks to me like at immortal-levels in 4E, the game will be much less about how much damage you do (since all classes do about the same damage) and more focused on the neat tricks and nasty combinations of abilities you have.

Yes indeed. Forcing your opponent into a tactical disadvantage will be where the real damage is dealt and victory is won.

It also seems that 4E immortals will likely have super-long combats. All sorts of ways to heal 1/4 - all (archmage) of your life means dieing is the least of your worries.

Lets not forget Void Damage (aka Permanent Damage) as well as some new ideas I have cooked up. PCs Immortals won't be getting off lightly, trust me.

That said, I did make a mistake in my initial damage output calculations (though I think I have that solved now). I think they should be slightly lower than I initially figured. But compound damage can still really mount up.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there (Ltheb and everyone else)!

Interesting preview today about magic items, it also turns the low damage to high hit point yield on its head. Critical hits now seemingly do gargantuan amounts of damage in 4E, especially at Epic Levels.

Lets assume Str 20 Level 30 Paladin with a +6 Holy Avenger Longsword

Base Damage: 1d8 +11 (or thereabouts) = avg. 15.5
Crit Damage: 19 + 3d8 + 6d6 radiant = avg. 51.5

Str 24 Level 30 Fighter with a +6 Vicious Battleaxe

Base Damage: 1d12+13 = avg. 19.5
Crit Damage: 25 + 3d12 + 6d12 = avg. 83

Combine that with dailies dealing 3x weapon damage and free action powers (of the magic items) adding more damage and its certainly possible to be averaging over 100 damage on a crit at epic levels.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Hello there (Ltheb and everyone else)!

Interesting preview today about magic items, it also turns the low damage to high hit point yield on its head. Critical hits now seemingly do gargantuan amounts of damage in 4E, especially at Epic Levels.

Lets assume Str 20 Level 30 Paladin with a +6 Holy Avenger Longsword

Base Damage: 1d8 +11 (or thereabouts) = avg. 15.5
Crit Damage: 19 + 3d8 + 6d6 radiant = avg. 51.5

Str 24 Level 30 Fighter with a +6 Vicious Battleaxe

Base Damage: 1d12+13 = avg. 19.5
Crit Damage: 25 + 3d12 + 6d12 = avg. 83

Combine that with dailies dealing 3x weapon damage and free action powers (of the magic items) adding more damage and its certainly possible to be averaging over 100 damage on a crit at epic levels.

It is interesting. Humerous, as this is sort of how I've been running my low-magic setting for about a year now.
And while these magic items may seem to generate explosive ammounts of damage, I think they really serve to speed up otherwise uneventful fights. (or to seal-the-deal with foes who might be vulnerable)
Example: A Flametongue sword (lets say a basic flaming weapon) vs the Wall of Ice Spell. In 3.0/3.5, it could take several hits to smash through the wall depending on how strong the wielder of the blade was. (Or how many feats and damage adds he might have) In 4E, since a wall of ice has Fire Vulnerability 25, the ability to make a flametongue sword deal pure fire damage means that you don't even need to waste a use of it's 1/day power or wait for a crit to tear through the wall in 1-2 hits. (max 2 hits)
So 4E seems to make choosing a magic sword a tactical issue rather then a pile-it-on issue. In 3E, a Flametongue isn't really much more effective against a Frost Giant. in 4E, it could significantly affect the fight.

I don't think we will see any creatures taking double damage from anything, but it looks like having the right weapon for the job will be an important element. How else would killing a Phane in combat not take hours without a Ghost-Touch type weapon? (Since otherwise you are dealing 1/2 damage...)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Ltheb dude!

It is interesting. Humerous, as this is sort of how I've been running my low-magic setting for about a year now.

And while these magic items may seem to generate explosive ammounts of damage, I think they really serve to speed up otherwise uneventful fights. (or to seal-the-deal with foes who might be vulnerable)

It certainly makes critical hits far more important.

In 3E a crit would do double damage (or x3 for some weapons and x4 for scythes) but realistically that was only +25% of your output with 4 attacks (or even less with 2WF). So it was nice, but not likely to swing a fight.

In 4E a crit seems to give you about +250% or more. Which is a massive difference (a critical hit is now effectively 10 times more important in 4E).

Example: A Flametongue sword (lets say a basic flaming weapon) vs the Wall of Ice Spell. In 3.0/3.5, it could take several hits to smash through the wall depending on how strong the wielder of the blade was. (Or how many feats and damage adds he might have) In 4E, since a wall of ice has Fire Vulnerability 25, the ability to make a flametongue sword deal pure fire damage means that you don't even need to waste a use of it's 1/day power or wait for a crit to tear through the wall in 1-2 hits. (max 2 hits)

So 4E seems to make choosing a magic sword a tactical issue rather then a pile-it-on issue. In 3E, a Flametongue isn't really much more effective against a Frost Giant. in 4E, it could significantly affect the fight.

I don't think we will see any creatures taking double damage from anything, but it looks like having the right weapon for the job will be an important element. How else would killing a Phane in combat not take hours without a Ghost-Touch type weapon? (Since otherwise you are dealing 1/2 damage...)

I think its possible we may see Vulnerabilities akin to:

Heroic Tier Monster - Vulnerability 5
Paragon Tier Monster - Vulnerability 5-10
Epic Tier Monster - Vulnerability 5-15

So multipliers are out, and flat bonuses (or penalties) are in, which helps for balance.

Also interesting in one of the past previews was the subject of currency.

Heroic Tier - predominantly Gold used
Paragon Tier - Platinum
Epic Tier - Astral Diamonds

In addition the exchange rate is 100 Gold = 1 Platinum and 10,000 Gold = 1 Astral Diamond.

Makes you wonder what sort of currency Demigods & Gods will have...

Brainstorming for a 4E book, I have wondered what Portfolios I should have in the book. As far as I can estimate. Each Portfolio will require 4 pages in 4E (because you detail the powers therein). Therefore (assuming a 160 page book) I think a limit of maybe 20 Portfolios (possibly 24?) is realistic. Other portfolios will of course be dealt with in later books.

So it begs the question what are the main (20) portfolios?

I was thinking.

Knowledge, Love, Skill, Stoicism, Strength, Wisdom
Darkness, Fire, Mountain, Sea, Sky, Sun, Thunder, Winter
Death, Healing, Magic, Protection, Trickery, War

Any suggestions?