4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[S'mon]

Hiya matey!

Incidently I just got back from a screening of Hellboy II and I must say it was thoroughly enjoyable...hey, they even mention Northern Ireland in it! I totally recommend it to everyone here - assuming you haven't already seen it that is.

It is depressing to hear that 4E Epic combat, as of the FR campaign guide, has become a stun-battle. Isn't that what WotC said they wanted to avoid in combat? I guess the FR team didn't get the memo.

I'll need to double check but I wonder do they reduce the damage when a power has the stun condition? A first glance over suggests they don't, but that could be erroneous.

A solution, although a lame one, would just to give all epic level combatants a sort of daze/stun conversion, where a dazed combatant could still take a full turn, but at a -2 to all attack and damage rolls, and a Stunned combatant could act at -4.

I think the solution may be to simply give people more of a chance to avoid it/save against it.

Also I like Rorn's Saving Throw mechanic; evidently, the designers thought that one through a bit;

Yes its quite a good idea, a sort of a buffer saving throw. Though technically it doesn't solve the ultimate problem of high ability score based DCs.

but why the Immunity to Character Level <20? It seems oddly metagame, but I guess you could beat him with really, really lucky rolls.

They were just being really silly.

 

[S'mon]

Hey all! Krusty here!

Was thinking last night that the hit point multipliers for Elite and Solo monsters may be wrong...or at least not what the designers initially envisioned.

For instance Elite monsters have +2 to all defenses higher than standard monsters while Solo monsters tend to have +5. That in and of itself means they are 20% and 50% respectively, less likely to be hit in combat.

This means that instead of a Solo monster being five times more powerful (as its EXP suggests) its actually ten times more powerful.

To be five times more powerful you would instead multiply the monsters as follows.

Elite: +60% hp
Solo: +150% hp

To convert existing monsters:

Elite: 4/5ths current totals
Solo: 1/2 current total

Any thoughts?

 

[Pssthpok]

Thoughts? Yeah: leave it alone. You're 'constellating' - drawing conclusions about one thing from another; the bonus to defenses does NOT have to tie directly in accordance with the HP increase. You've made that up, so no... change nothing. Keep playing the way it is.

 

[S'mon]

Hiya Pssthpok mate!

Thoughts? Yeah: leave it alone. You're 'constellating' - drawing conclusions about one thing from another; the bonus to defenses does NOT have to tie directly in accordance with the HP increase. You've made that up, so no... change nothing. Keep playing the way it is.

I certainly wasn't planning to change something so fundamental. Though I may have mentioned something in a sidebar as an option.

Incidently, when I was at the gaming club in London today one of the gaming group was a fantasy artist, so it could be that I have two artists for the near future, I will be talking to her over the next few days (when I get back home).

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I'm going to agree with Pssthpok here; I think looking for problems without enough data is a pointless and self-defeating venture. The only way to KNOW if Elites and Solos have too many HP/Defenses is to roll up a bunch at different levels and see how they compare to PCs of those levels.

As for the game I ran: Even the Elite Brute I had at the end didn't last more than 7 rounds. (A shame; I didn't give him too many choices, he could have been more challenging)

I want to echo a bit of the DMG guidelines here for Elite and Solo design, as from my experience, they are important to follow, but not spelled out enough:
1. Elites, and indeed Solos, need to be interesting. Many powers/attacks/interrupts/reactions help with this, but a single basic attack is just not enough; without enough options, they become sacks of hitpoints.
2. They say that, in general, elites need to do something when bloodied. This is true. In fact, having an elite or solo that totally switches gears when bloodied makes them much more interesting. Elites take the place of 2 basic monsters, so why shouldn't they have as many tricks up their sleeve? Look at the (Non-Elite) angel of Valor; Their aura goes away when bloodied, but they gain a new attack form. I could see 4E Immortals (and their foes) having the ability to basically change monster roles half-way though the fight. (An Artillery god becoming more of a skirmisher god when bloodied)
3. Elites, and definitely solos, need to be deadly. If the party can heal itself faster then the elite can damage, asside from resource depletion, there's no challenge. Elites only get one attack a round, so it needs to do comparable damage compared to replacing the elite with 2 artillery monsters. If Elites are intended to be the 'stars' of the combat 'show', then they need to be the biggest threat. In one encounter I ran, (2 Angels of Valor, a Cambion Hellsword, and an 8th level Elite Human Berserker Scion of Flame) The party ignored the human and took out the angels and Cambion first. The only element making that fight hard was that most PCs by then had only 1-2 healing surges left, but had all their Dailies remaining.

Another thing to think about: Elite enemies in certain roles just are not interesting. Elite Brutes and Soldiers are cool and 2X hp and higher damage make sense, but Elite Lurkers? The 2X HP just seem like they are abnormally tough. In my mind; an Elite Lurker or Skirmisher isn't just tougher; It's faster, more stealthy, and has more options. Thats what makes Lurkers and Skirmishers so interesting, not their high HP totals. (Lurkers have the lowest HP anyway) I would say, when tossing together Elite Lurkers and Skirmishers, (or when contemplating 4E Immortals Skirmishers and Lurkers) More HP does not equal more interesting. A Lurker, like a Wraith, might have a power to hit, and then shift away. An Elite lurker, by example, might have a power to hit, move away, and stealth, all in the same attack.

 

[S'mon]

Hey Ltheb mate!

Krusty here, My last post as S'mon...I leave here in about an hour or so to get to the airport. Thanks to S'mon and Zander for a great 10 days.

I'm going to agree with Pssthpok here; I think looking for problems without enough data is a pointless and self-defeating venture. The only way to KNOW if Elites and Solos have too many HP/Defenses is to roll up a bunch at different levels and see how they compare to PCs of those levels.

You guys are probably correct I'll leave that particular avenue alone for now.

Incidently I was thinking about rules for creatures relatively weaker than minions. Or in a roundabout way how large groups might function against really tough opponents (such as immortals).

This allows powerful characters/immortals to face off against a whole army but treat the army as one entity sort of thing.

I was thinking the three treatments might be:

Mob: 10 opponents...standard encounter
Army: 1000 opponents...elite encounter
Horde: 1,000,000 opponents...solo encounter

As for the game I ran: Even the Elite Brute I had at the end didn't last more than 7 rounds. (A shame; I didn't give him too many choices, he could have been more challenging)

I want to echo a bit of the DMG guidelines here for Elite and Solo design, as from my experience, they are important to follow, but not spelled out enough:

Fire away, I appreciate the advice.

1. Elites, and indeed Solos, need to be interesting. Many powers/attacks/interrupts/reactions help with this, but a single basic attack is just not enough; without enough options, they become sacks of hitpoints.

As a sort of rule of thumb I was thinking that:

Minions: 2 powers
Standard Monsters: 4 powers
Elites: 6 powers
Solos: 8 powers

This may or may not be in addition to its basic attack.

2. They say that, in general, elites need to do something when bloodied. This is true. In fact, having an elite or solo that totally switches gears when bloodied makes them much more interesting. Elites take the place of 2 basic monsters, so why shouldn't they have as many tricks up their sleeve? Look at the (Non-Elite) angel of Valor; Their aura goes away when bloodied, but they gain a new attack form. I could see 4E Immortals (and their foes) having the ability to basically change monster roles half-way though the fight. (An Artillery god becoming more of a skirmisher god when bloodied)

I have a number of ideas along these lines, ranging from minor mechanical changes to a whole new statblock.

3. Elites, and definitely solos, need to be deadly. If the party can heal itself faster then the elite can damage, asside from resource depletion, there's no challenge. Elites only get one attack a round, so it needs to do comparable damage compared to replacing the elite with 2 artillery monsters. If Elites are intended to be the 'stars' of the combat 'show', then they need to be the biggest threat. In one encounter I ran, (2 Angels of Valor, a Cambion Hellsword, and an 8th level Elite Human Berserker Scion of Flame) The party ignored the human and took out the angels and Cambion first. The only element making that fight hard was that most PCs by then had only 1-2 healing surges left, but had all their Dailies remaining.

Surely this indirectly ties to party composition (a group of Warlords and Clerics can heal better than a typical party for instance). I mean the damage outputs are fairly well determined in the DMG. Elites could have a secondary attack that operates under certain circumstances.

Another thing to think about: Elite enemies in certain roles just are not interesting. Elite Brutes and Soldiers are cool and 2X hp and higher damage make sense, but Elite Lurkers? The 2X HP just seem like they are abnormally tough. In my mind; an Elite Lurker or Skirmisher isn't just tougher; It's faster, more stealthy, and has more options. Thats what makes Lurkers and Skirmishers so interesting, not their high HP totals. (Lurkers have the lowest HP anyway) I would say, when tossing together Elite Lurkers and Skirmishers, (or when contemplating 4E Immortals Skirmishers and Lurkers) More HP does not equal more interesting. A Lurker, like a Wraith, might have a power to hit, and then shift away. An Elite lurker, by example, might have a power to hit, move away, and stealth, all in the same attack.

Are you saying avoid Elite/Solo Lurkers then, or just keep them to a minimum? I can't imagine you are suggesting doctoring their hit points...?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Not suggesting Cutting Elite/Solo Lurker's HP, but that, when designing powers, more effort than normal be put into interesting powers for them, so that they don't become 'Elite Skirmishers who sit out the first round or so hiding'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I'm back home as you might expect. Thanks again to S'mon and Zander for a great week (and a bit).

Slight misfortune when I got back. Basically my computer is broken, some sort of hardware failure I think, possibly ram related (it was a very old machine and it hadn't been active in almost two weeks).

Luckily I had the foresight to buy that laptop a few weeks ago...which is what I am on now. Unfortunately, with the holiday and all, I hadn't yet copied everything across to the laptop, and I don't as yet have all my old software installed. Don't worry about files and stuff - I have those all backed up, but it could take me a week or two to get everthing sorted.

So that may put a crimp in my immediate plans, though I'll still try and spend my time as productively as possible.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Been pondering some of the changes that will apply to 4E immortals and trying to boil everything down to some easily maintainable level.

New Features will likely include...

1. Portfolios replacing Class Levels above 30.
2. Aura
2b. Some nice 'Expend Aura' powers of course.
3. Realm (You gain an extra Action Point while within your Realm)
3b. Taint (Basically an effect similar to half your aura applies to your entire Realm)
4. Reconstitution (Okay, you know those Epic Destiny features where you don't die, well, like that only you need an Action Point for them to function)
5. Pantheon Pledges (Replace Paragon Paths between Levels 31-40)

Things I am still working on (mainly balancing issues)...

6. Artifacts (these will be more powerful than regular items). One option might be to not have items above 30th-level except artifacts - though I am not sure if that idea is totally palatable?
7. Avatars/Creatures (such as steeds)
8. Aspects/Minions

At the moment, one idea is that instead of choosing the new Aura ability (which comes with each Portfolio), you could instead either: create an artifact, create an avatar or some other creature, create multiple aspects or minions. You gain a new portfolio every five levels (31, 36, 41, 46) so using this method you could:

a) Concentrate on Aura and have a really powerful Aura by 46th-level.
b) Concentrate on artifacts and be really tooled up.
c) Gain multiple creatures or avatars.
d) Have loads of minions/aspects.
e) Or any combination of the above.

Seemingly the easiest way to balance things is to have:

Avatars = Standard Monsters = Immortal -5 Levels
Aspects = Minion Monsters = Immortal -5 Levels (but you get four of them).

eg. Orcus (Level 42 as a PC) would have a Level 37 Avatar or standard monster/pet/steed, or a group of Level 37 Minions as Aspects/

Applying that to NPCs.

eg. Orcus (Solo 33) would have a Level 28 Avatar and Level 28 Aspects.

Initially I wanted Avatars at -10 and Aspects at -20, but then they make virtually no sense in terms of aiding PCs as anything less than about -5 Levels is likely to be worthless in combat.

Arguably you could choose Elite Monsters bu using two slots and Solo monsters by using five. I sort of like the idea of creating Elite and Solo artifacts.

Any comments?

 

[Center-of-All]

Honestly, I don't like the idea of gaining allies being so easy. They removed summons from the PHB for a reason, the slow the game to a crawl. And 4 of them? I just don't think it will work. The numbers of the game are based around PCs vs. monsters, and throwing 'monsters' on the PCs side is just going to break things. I can tell you already that the avatars will be useless, while the numbers on the aspects will be just stupid. They'll have more hp then the original in all likelyhood, but do pitiful damage. The whole avatar/aspect should remain NPC fodder, something adventuring gods don't bring along with them.