4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

U_K!

Hi Ltheb mate!

Good to hear that you are getting stuff done. (or are atleast planning to try to attempt to get something done )

I'm one of the best planners in the business...its the getting it done that stumps me.

I like that you have a gameplan for how to handle the books you want to attempt. One minor bit concerns me slightly: As with the 3E Immortal's Rules Set, you are writing and publishing the Bestiary before the Base Ruleset. In the past, this led to some design hiccups (The Nexus Dragon's deceptivly low CR, and the VSC madness) which prolonged Ascension's design time. I am concerned that without a baseline of "what Immortal's PCs are Capable of at Level X" that a similar problem may occur. You may write some "Astral-Mega-Demon" that assumes standards that won't make it into the 4E IH.

Thats a potential problem, but I think with 4E's maths so intrinsic to the game I really don't see it as a factor.

If things are going to get really EPIC in 4E, then its likely to happen in scale (as in how many things you can affect) rather than in the linear fashion 3E adopts (bigger damage).

Now, I am sure, with 4E being out for ~6 months, that you have brainstormed whatever ideas you have and may attempt to convert alot of your 3E IH material, but the math-models are what tripped you up last time, and that is what 4E game design hinges on.

True, but all the math is already done for you in 4E.

3E was a bit more plug-math-then-test, while with 4E I can generally plug the math, and, barring extreme stupidity on my end, the math will always play right. (In my first 4E campaign, the Big-bad, an insane cultist, had a rediculously high to-hit bonus. I forgot [when designing] that NPC to-hit isn't directly affected by wisdom. Essentially, he added his wisdom to-hit with his powers twice, giving him a +20 to hit at 10th level! Thankfully, while I didn't correct this during the fight, the PCs still faired well, defeating both the cultist and his summoned Berbalang, with a hireling as the only casulty.)

Yes but that was simply a human error, not an error of the system itself. To me I'll be using an extrapolated 4E.

...and worst case scenario I am sure you guys will keep me right.

Otherwise, it sounds like you have a good plan. I can't wait to see what kind of 'Krustian-Krazyness' you have planned.

Lipika in Gods & Monsters v1.1 for starters.

 

[Paragon]

this may be more of a 3.5 question than a 4e, and i apologize if it is covered in the books and i just didn't see it.
but with quintessence can that be used for spells/effects that have an exp casting cost. such as limited wish or such. basically could you use quint in place for exp and what is the ratio if possible.

thanks!

 

[Pssthpok]

The only "Krusty-Kraziness" I expect to see is when, come February 09, nothing's been done yet.
I mean, it's going on '09, right? Well, I bought my copy of Ascension in '06... still isn't done. Something tells me this endeavor will pan out the same way.

 

[Alzrius]

this may be more of a 3.5 question than a 4e, and i apologize if it is covered in the books and i just didn't see it.
but with quintessence can that be used for spells/effects that have an exp casting cost. such as limited wish or such. basically could you use quint in place for exp and what is the ratio if possible.

Most likely you can, at a 1:1 ratio. U_K has said that his intent for spell-like abilities with XP costs is that characters must still pay those costs when using them (a change from the official rules), and that if they have quintessence they use that instead. I wouldn't be too surprised if that was the case for spells with XP costs as well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Paragon matey!

this may be more of a 3.5 question than a 4e, and i apologize if it is covered in the books and i just didn't see it.
but with quintessence can that be used for spells/effects that have an exp casting cost. such as limited wish or such. basically could you use quint in place for exp and what is the ratio if possible.

thanks!

The initial idea (as Alzrius mentions) was for a 1:1 swop between Quintessence and Experience.

It may be more prudent to have a 1:25 swop though and thats potentially how it might end up in Godsend.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Pssthpok dude!

The only "Krusty-Kraziness" I expect to see is when, come February 09, nothing's been done yet.

Somethings going to be done, that for sure. Whether or not entire books are finished (re: art and so forth) is another matter.

I mean, it's going on '09, right? Well, I bought my copy of Ascension in '06... still isn't done. Something tells me this endeavor will pan out the same way.

It is sort of done in that all the ideas are there.

Its simply very difficult to find the time to do stuff. You almost can't have a life outside it and the part time job has derailed things almost completely.

Its a case of living on the poverty line and getting things done slowly or having a part time job and getting things done VERY, VERY slowly.

I take my holidays at work to actually go work on the writing. I think that puts things in perspective.

 

[Pssthpok]

Heyhey UK,

I understand how it all breaks down - free time vs. earning the rent, hammering out ideas vs. putting them in a PDF, trying to do it all PLUS art... yeah it's a pain in the arse... to do it all by yourself.
But you don't have to.
I'm sure there are people here who can help in terms of typing, testing the math, format and layout, et al.
The downside is that you would have to share some of your secrets, and you won't make (as much) money doing it, since it'd become more of a community thing with you as the Lead, rather than us pawns waiting with baited breath (and asphyxiating) for the muses to grace the almighty Krust.
The flipside to that is that you're not really making money anyway.
At least with help, you could have a life AND get things done.
I dunno. Mull it over.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Heyhey UK,

Howdy Pssthpok mate!

I understand how it all breaks down - free time vs. earning the rent, hammering out ideas vs. putting them in a PDF, trying to do it all PLUS art... yeah it's a pain in the arse... to do it all by yourself.

Indeed.

But you don't have to.

I'm sure there are people here who can help in terms of typing, testing the math, format and layout, et al.

Well if anyones interested, drop me a line.

Writers (multiple) - for new portfolios, monsters, feats, magic items, rituals.
Designer - for doing the layout and possibly new logos, borders and so forth.
Editing/Playtesting - we can solve after the work is approaching done.

The downside is that you would have to share some of your secrets,

What secrets!?

and you won't make (as much) money doing it, since it'd become more of a community thing with you as the Lead, rather than us pawns waiting with baited breath (and asphyxiating) for the muses to grace the almighty Krust.

It hasn't been about the money since I started this part time job (18 months).

The flipside to that is that you're not really making money anyway.

Thats true.

At least with help, you could have a life AND get things done.
I dunno. Mull it over.

The problem I have with this approach is communication. I can take the notes I have written down and turn them into finished monster, or spell or whatever. But that raises two problems. Firstly, I can't really give people those notes without first typing them up (making the point of having someone else type them up redundant). Secondly, they won't be able to turn the notes into something proper without me taking them by the hand and basically leading them through it all - again defeating the purpose of me not spending the time doing it myself in the first place.

The only way this side of things works is by commissioning people to write sections of the book themselves using an already established format - case in point the Portfolios or Monsters (but could just as equally be feats or magic items/artifacts). Once people saw the portfolios and monsters I designed they were able to create their own (and with regards the monsters I mean utilizing certain size/density rules and design parameter ideas I had - including specific things like for monsters like Dragons and Golems).

The art side of things I have sorted to a degree - but I am not commissioning any art until I have the text finished.

The layout and stuff I probably could use a hand with. Obviously I am always trying to make the thing look more professional, but I don't really have the time or inclination to spend a lot of effort on something like photoshop to have borders and page numbers mimicking some embossed twisted metal (as seems the way these days). That said, outside of the basic layout theres not really that much you can do with these books...though I would be open to ideas from any budding graphic designers.

The editing, obviously I need a hand with. But Alzrius and others have that area covered already.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

U_K!

I understand communication issues are huge in a project like this, but thats no reason to do all the hard work yourself. Writing still has to be done by you, but sometimes, like with the 3E IH, some of the stuff in older versions needed pre-release-revising. (Simply unforeseeable mechanical quirks, like 'VSC vs DvR vs ECL') However, playtesting, and getting second opinions on mechanics and system-bending-effects can't be bad. Either way you still mull over the details; But with a playtest, you wont get as near to completion and have to gut old rules for more streamlined rules.

U_K, you have an awesome concept in the IH, but it was a darn shame 4E beat you to the punch. As I see it, the faster you get a 4E book out, the faster people can read and recommend the book to their friends. My group was always dying to get a copy of the IH, but they are not the PDF-types, they prefer hard copies, but even still they really thought the IH was neat, and had all sorts of rules that they probably wouldn't even consider.

I would love to assist in playtesting if you need any; Unfortunately, due to the holidays and wacky circumstances, I may not be able to get my group together until march or later. Even so, with other people assisting in a playtest, especially those of different design views, might lend itself better to sorting out bugs than doing it yourself and then feeding it to a peanut gallery one snippet at a time.

As for writing or designing; I don't consider myself a professional at either of those, so I wouldn't want to detract from anything you could do better. I love designing things; I have dozens of CDs filled with NPCs, Homebrew-setting-junk, and the like; How much do I use? ~5%; I might be able to contribute feats, monsters, or obvious design extensions, but most of that would be post-playtest, after the main 'baseline' for the 4E IH is established.

What ever you decide to do, I hope things work out better than they did for 4E; 4E seems more amenable to Immortals design, but so was 3E in comparison to 2E.

 

[Pssthpok]

Howdy Pssthpok mate!

Hiya!

What secrets!?

Coy, you. The bulk of your brilliance (to avoid beating around the bush) is your unique flexing of the existing ruleset to coincide with your comprehensively envisioned cosmology; as the source of any good epic ruleset is a way to show people how the universe works, and how their PCs can aspire beyond normal limits and towards transcendence. Which the IH did, in many ways, it was just too much for one man and a word processor to handle, if you don't begrudge me my opinion on the matter.

The problem I have with this approach is communication.[...]

I completely understand. You're either behind the typewriter or looming over those who are. Either way, it's still on your plate.

The only way this side of things works is by commissioning people to write sections of the book themselves using an already established format - case in point the Portfolios or Monsters (but could just as equally be feats or magic items/artifacts). Once people saw the portfolios and monsters I designed they were able to create their own (and with regards the monsters I mean utilizing certain size/density rules and design parameter ideas I had - including specific things like for monsters like Dragons and Golems).

This. Give some of us the guidelines, show us how to be consistent with your vision of the math behind the curtain (unlike WotC), and give a formatting template. Before 4E killed 3.5, I had entire pantheons lined up but I had to teach myself how you came to your numbers. v6 never hit the shelf, so I was usually in doubt.
I believe we corresponded over email a few times regarding the differences between v5 and v6.

The art side of things I have sorted to a degree - but I am not commissioning any art until I have the text finished.

I recall you saying, and that makes perfect sense.

The layout and stuff I probably could use a hand with. Obviously I am always trying to make the thing look more professional, but I don't really have the time or inclination to spend a lot of effort on something like photoshop to have borders and page numbers mimicking some embossed twisted metal (as seems the way these days). That said, outside of the basic layout theres not really that much you can do with these books...though I would be open to ideas from any budding graphic designers.

Beats me; I got a degree in literature and study ancient history as a hobby.

The editing, obviously I need a hand with. But Alzrius and others have that area covered already.

That's half the battle.