<5-ft. Reach Attacks from the Darkness

[doktorstick]

A character summons a fiendish hawk. It is sent to attack a creature whose only light source is a 20-ft. torch. Beyond his torchlight is darkness. The hawk swoops in for an attack. It enters into the square of the creature...

Is the target creature flat-footed?

The more general question would be: Are targets considered flat-footed for any standard action that originates in the darkness presuming that they have no way of seeing into that darkness?

/ds

 

[mikebr99]

Well... considering that the Hawk is flying at around 20ft. per second... unless the Hawk is flying directly at the character's face, in the direction of his sight... I'd say that the Hawk gets the benefit of suprise.

 

[kreynolds]

unless the Hawk is flying directly at the character's face, in the direction of his sight

The only problem with this is that facing doesn't exhist in 3rd edition. The Shield spell is an exception to that.

Unless the hawk acted during the surprise round, the character isn't caught flat-footed. It doesn't really matter if the hawk originated from an area of darkness. Because the character essentially faces in all directions at once, he will see the hawk as it comes into the lighted area, unless, of course, the hawk succeeded at a Hide check and the character fowled up his Spot check.

Besides, you can't be flat-footed after combat starts. You can lose your Dex bonus to AC, but that's different.

 

[mikebr99]

The only problem with this is that facing doesn't exhist in 3rd edition. The Shield spell is an exception to that.

Unless the hawk acted during the surprise round, the character isn't caught flat-footed. It doesn't really matter if the hawk originated from an area of darkness. Because the character essentially faces in all directions at once, he will see the hawk as it comes into the lighted area, unless, of course, the hawk succeeded at a Hide check and the character fowled up his Spot check.

Besides, you can't be flat-footed after combat starts. You can lose your Dex bonus to AC, but that's different.

True... but should we really be thinking that a character is "all-knowing" of things going on within that 20ft. radius sphere?

Hawks don't have any move silently rating... though I think it should be up there with the Owl...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Is the target creature flat-footed?

The more general question would be: Are targets considered flat-footed for any standard action that originates in the darkness presuming that they have no way of seeing into that darkness?

The general answer is a definite "No".

"Flat-footed" as defined by the game only occurs at the beginning of combat. It never applies in the middle of combat.

A creature that is effectively invisible gains the benefits of invisibility against its target. The target loses Dex bonus against the attack (opening the possibility for sneak attacks) and cannot make AoOs against the attacker.

Unfortunately for the hawk, he has to cross that 20-ft lighted area where he will be seen. By the book, the hawk would get no particular bonus.

This might be a good place for the DM to trust his judgement. I would match the target's Listen vs. the hawks Move Silently, and give the hawk a +2 circumstance bonus to hit if he wins.

BTW, the target will definitely get his AoO before the reach zero attack can get him.

Note that an arrow does gain the benefits of where the attack stands, so a Rogue 25 feet away could sneak attack from the darkness.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

True... but should we really be thinking that a character is "all-knowing" of things going on within that 20ft. radius sphere?

Hawks don't have any move silently rating... though I think it should be up there with the Owl...

That is just an artifact of the simplifications of having no facing and simple lighting rules.

Hawks have 0 ranks of Move Silently. They prefer to dive on their prey from heights or make fast swooping attacks; they don't need any Move Silently skill.

 

[doktorstick]

My mistake on flat-footed. I often use "flat-footed" and "denied Dexterity" interchangeably when I shouldn't.

Let me see if I understand:
- The target is denied his Dexterity bonus if the attack originates from the darkness.
- A creature moving through the light to attack the target is seen and as such the target has his Dexterity bonus.
- Optional: DMs may assign a Spot vs. Move Silently check, or perhaps a Spot vs. DC 10, to give the creature a bonus to attack on the Spot failure.

/ds

 

[kreynolds]

True... but should we really be thinking that a character is "all-knowing" of things going on within that 20ft. radius sphere?

Yes. There is no facing and the character is not sleeping.

Hawks don't have any move silently rating...

Sucks to be them, doesn't it?

though I think it should be up there with the Owl...

Probably.

 

[kreynolds]

My mistake on flat-footed. I often use "flat-footed" and "denied Dexterity" interchangeably when I shouldn't.

No biggie. I did it for a really long time as well.

 

[Artoomis]

My thoughts (not necessarily original ones) :

1. A hawk does not move silently - on fact, they sometimes make quite a bit of noise before they dive on the prey. Wind whistles by them when they dive, etc. They rely on speed, not stealth.

2. For the very first attck, I'd say the "victim" was flat-footed unless they heard somehting first.

3. For the second and following attacks, there is no advantage to the hawk unless he takes one attack and then disengages completely form the comabt, only to attack again in a minute or so. Even then, after the second or third time I'd rule that the "victim" would be prepared.

4. You could add in things as seem proper. Spot checks, Hear Noise, etc.