5' Step Questions (Moved from House Rules)

[IceBear]

Er, no. That's inaccurate in a number of ways.

As a spellcaster you're better off casting defensively, staying just where you are. If your Concentration is good enough you'll lose very few spells and you won't be inviting AoOs. If you need to move away to prevent a foe from getting a full attack on you after casting (because he's still up and would kill you on his next turn), then you need to take a single or double move anyway (_and_ hope you won't end up in a location your opponent can charge), a 5' step isn't going to help you there anyway even by PHB rules.

As a melee type you need the 5' step all the time, to move up to the next foe in line after you've felled one, to step up towards a foe with longer reach who has charged to just outside your reach the round before, to shuffle around a foe gradually to get into a flanking position without inviting AoOs etc.
You also use the 5' step whenever you have taken a full-round action but want to move/start moving to somewhere else. Melee types at higher levels especially use full-round actions all the time because that's the way they get their iterative attacks.

Yes, I know he would be better off casting defensively - I was keeping it simple. Sorry for causing confusion. I was just doing a one for one with respect to the 5ft step, and since casting defensively is currently an option anyway I just discarded it as it equals out in the wash.

You are true about taking the 5ft step after a FRA. I was thinking about AoO avoidance and was too narrow in my focus. Moving one square in someone's threatened area wouldn't draw an AoO for moving anyway. But yeah, you get the 5ft step tactical repositioning.

I guess it'll work, but not in my games. I like the 5ft step currently to make certain classes more viable, this favors melee characters, and I currently don't think they need any favoring. Skill points are limited enough, but without the 5ft step archers and casters will have to max out Concentration and Tumble to survive. The main problem with the 5ft step plausibility was touched on before - the way the rounds are broken up make things stand out. Essentially, the archer steps back and shoots and the fighter moves up at the same time, but because of the break down of a round it seems like it's not.

If my group had a problem with the 5ft step then I'd give everyone the Dragonstar feat for free.

 

[StalkingBlue]

...I like the 5ft step currently to make certain classes more viable. Skill points are limited enough, but without the 5ft step they'll have to max out Concentration and Tumble to survive.

Interesting. I don't see problems like that in the games I run/play in. Do you run dungeon crawls a lot? That might explain it I guess. A game dominated by combat encounters in enclosed spaces needs tactics different from one that has a lot of outdoors locations in it.

And to be honest, even in dungeon environments, the spellcasters in the game I currently play in usually manage to stay out of melee just fine.
The Wizard (played by a bloody coward) is especially good at sword avoidance: I've only seen him hit once, when ambushed at night by enemies climbing up into his Rope Trick while he slept. The Sorceress was almost as good (killed recently by being caught in repeated Cones of Cold, caught in melee only twice in her career, which lasted for several months). The Druid-Witch, played by me, was recently smeared across a cavern floor by a bunch of mid-level ogre-barbarians - in which situation a 5' step was of little avail to me (but clearer tactical thinking before the event would have been).

As to Tumble - are you referring to archers here? None of the above casters has/have had a single rank in Tumble, nor have I ever seen a pure caster tumble in DnD.
Tumble is an ok skill for an archer to have I guess, but by no means all archers I've seen played had ranks in it, and most survived just fine and staid out of melee without Tumbling around.

If my group had a problem with the 5ft step then I'd give everyone the Dragonstar feat for free.

Yup, sounds feasible, too.

 

[IceBear]

Double post

 

[IceBear]

Interesting. I don't see problems like that in the games I run/play in. Do you run dungeon crawls a lot? That might explain it I guess. A game dominated by combat encounters in enclosed spaces needs tactics different from one that has a lot of outdoors locations in it.

And to be honest, even in dungeon environments, the spellcasters in the game I currently play in usually manage to stay out of melee just fine.
The Wizard (played by a bloody coward) is especially good at sword avoidance: I've only seen him hit once, when ambushed at night by enemies climbing up into his Rope Trick while he slept. The Sorceress was almost as good (killed recently by being caught in repeated Cones of Cold, caught in melee only twice in her career, which lasted for several months). The Druid-Witch, played by me, was recently smeared across a cavern floor by a bunch of mid-level ogre-barbarians - in which situation a 5' step was of little avail to me (but clearer tactical thinking before the event would have been).

As to Tumble - are you referring to archers here? None of the above casters has/have had a single rank in Tumble, nor have I ever seen a pure caster tumble in DnD.
Tumble is an ok skill for an archer to have I guess, but by no means all archers I've seen played had ranks in it, and most survived just fine and staid out of melee without Tumbling around.



Yup, sounds feasible, too.

I guess we're having communication issues - I talk in generalities and you like specifics (the comments about tumble here). Just an observation. What I meant is that, generally, removing the 5ft step could make some players feel like they have to take ranks in Tumble and Concentration that they wouldn't have had before. Forcing a player to choose a certain way is something I try to avoid.

Actually, no, I DON'T run into these problems in my games - I have a mix of indoors and outdoors. That's my point, you're adding a wrinkle to the rules as written to handle a rare situation that offends your sensibilities IF it occurs. That makes me wonder if the rule change is really needed.

Spellcasters and archers tend to stay out of melee in my games. About the only time there is a 5ft step in my game is when the cleric needs to step back and heal or someone wants to drink a potion. To not allow that would increase the lethality of my game, which is lethal enough.

Again, it's your game and no big deal to me what you do. I just think the rule, as written, is fine. The "oddness" of it comes from the artificial segmentation of "turns" within the round.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Actually, no, I DON'T run into these problems in my games - I have a mix of indoors and outdoors. That's my point, you're adding a wrinkle to the rules as written to handle a rare situation that offends your sensibilities IF it occurs. That makes me wonder if the rule change is really needed.

Spellcasters and archers tend to stay out of melee in my games. About the only time there is a 5ft step in my game is when the cleric needs to step back and heal or someone wants to drink a potion. To not allow that would increase the lethality of my game, which is lethal enough.QUOTE]

In addition to this, I'd like to say that casters getting into melee has a lot to do with the kind of monsters you use as well. I had one DM who used to attack us with invisible assassins and rogues who'd look at everyone's equipment, single out the wizard, then sneak up and death attack or sneak attack him. Also, normal monsters would disengage, willingly allowing an AOO to attack wizards as soon as they cast spells. It was very dangerous to cast spells. We needed every 5-ft step we could get. Not that monsters didn't ready an action to take a 5 ft step towards us and hit us if we tried to cast.

Majoru Oakheart

 

[S'mon]

SB has commented better than I could have.

Re casters - IMC (ca 13th level PCs) they don't need 5' steps, they always Cast Defensively, the Concentration check is trivial at higher levels.
Potions are never drunk in melee; the hp gain from a cure potion is trivial compared to PC's 100+ hps and the party Cleric's healing abilities. Currently all the party fighter types are meleers not archers, anyway. The altered 5' step rule should favour the PCs, as it will prevent NPC archers from just 5' stepping away & shooting a round of arrows at them without AoO.

 

[IceBear]

Double post

 

[IceBear]

SB has commented better than I could have.

Re casters - IMC (ca 13th level PCs) they don't need 5' steps, they always Cast Defensively, the Concentration check is trivial at higher levels.
Potions are never drunk in melee; the hp gain from a cure potion is trivial compared to PC's 100+ hps and the party Cleric's healing abilities. Currently all the party fighter types are meleers not archers, anyway. The altered 5' step rule should favour the PCs, as it will prevent NPC archers from just 5' stepping away & shooting a round of arrows at them without AoO.

Like I said, if it makes YOUR game more fun then go for it. I just think, in general (ie a generic campaign), it's an unneeded and unbalancing house rule - especially when the PCs are lower level. Low level spellcasters are in trouble with this rule; in trouble or disadvantaged

You can take a 5ft step with any partial action (such as from a readied action). So, readying an action to attack an archer gives you your attack and your AoO. After 5th level, the melee fighter is probably better just losing the AoO and making a FRA action and sundering the bow. I know that you don't like that, but that's an artifact of "taking turns"