D&D 5E 5E: A chiropractic adjustment for D&D (and why I'm very hopeful)

So, if you liked a band's first album, and then you thought everything they'd done after that was pretty much horrible junk, would you think they were an amazing band? Or a band who were great for one album, then really lost their way?

Absoulutely. IfShakespeare had only written Hamlet and a bunch of dirty limericks, would he be a talentless hack? Is Tolkien a horrible writer? After all, his only major work is Lord of the Rings.




Further, describing every single RPG designed by every game designer as "horribly designed, wonderfully organised", is such intensely shallow and meretricious tripe (and obviously in error, given how many are horribly organised!), that it's almost beyond comment (even if you limit it to D&D, Retro-Clone and OSR games it's pretty risible). That may well be your opinion, but it's the lowest-value kind of opinion - purely subjective, having no value to others, even those who might, in this case, also like 1E.

I was actually referring to later versions of D&D. There are some great rpgs out their that ARE wonderfully designed. As for D&D, not so much. And yes, that's my opinion, and I could give a crap whether you think it has value or not.



Only then we actually tried to read and play that game, and oh god, so bad. That'd be a whole thread by itself. Basically everything that could be wrong with an RPG, except for perversion or horrible art (it was so-so instead), was wrong with it. Terrible rules, terrible organisation, didn't play well, wasn't focused or exciting, etc. etc. Probably the greatest disappointment of my gaming career. I thought I'd found gold. I'd actually found mud.

I could say the same about 4e D&D, except in that case the art IS horrible, but I'd be lambasted as an edition warrior due to the double standard here.

It's been ages since I looked at DJ, but Gary's biggest mistake was trying to divorce himself from copyright. He went out of his way to NOT use any terms from D&D. PC became avatar, there are 18 stats instead of 6, etc. It was also a multi-genre game, much like Gurps. At least TSR thought it enough competition it to bury it forever.

Whatever you think of Gary, every rpg publisher since is merely a tribute band.
 
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Absoulutely. IfShakespeare had only written Hamlet and a bunch of dirty limericks, would he be a talentless hack? Is Tolkien a horrible writer? After all, his only major work is Lord of the Rings.
Well, if Shakespeare had only written Hamlet, he would still be talented, but he wouldn't be Shakespeare.

Here's the thing, if Gygax had only written up to the 1st edition AD&D books, and then written absolutely nothing else, there would be much less pushback about his design chops. He's not getting criticized for only doing D&D, he's being criticized because Dangerous Journeys was a terrible game. When Gygax + Arneson create a new brand, and Gygax by himself produces Dangerous Journeys, people start to do their own math.

That's not to say Gygax shouldn't be revered within the community. People who create things are important. The Wright Brothers are important because they made the first airplane, even if they turned out not to be so good at making better airplanes.

But, in general, people are going to be less impressed at the talent of people who are one-hit wonders than by people who produce a string of classic work. The Beatles wouldn't be the Beatles if the only hit song they wrote was "Hey Jude". Shigeru Miyamoto would be a relatively influential game designer if he had just made Super Mario Bros and the Legend of Zelda. But he also made Super Mario Bros 3, Super Mario World, A Link to the Past, Super Mario 64, and the Ocarina of Time, which is what elevates him to the very top of game designers.

Long story short, doing bad work opens you up to criticism, regardless of the importance of the work you did previously. That applies to Gygax as much as anybody else.

I could say the same about 4e D&D, except in that case the art IS horrible, but I'd be lambasted as an edition warrior due to the double standard here.
You can't edition war about Dangerous Journeys, because there isn't anyone around who cares. :) The most effective way to be an edition warrior is to act as though your opinion is the correct one, and not merely one taste variation among many.



Whatever you think of Gary, every rpg publisher since is merely a tribute band.
Well, no, since I think the opposite. Being a genre creator makes you worthy of respect, but it simply isn't the only factor in determining some hierarchy of critical "worthiness". That would be like calling "Arrested Development" just another knock-off of "I Love Lucy."
 
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Nobody is seriously saying that Ford himself wasn't a car making genius, are they? While they drive around in variations of his invention?

Nobody is saying Ford wasn't a genius. But then, nobody is saying that he is the end-all, be-all of car design, either. Nobody is saying we should be driving Model Ts today. And, it isn't as if Ford wasn't taking much of the general "design" of his car from the surrey and other vehicles that came before him. The automobile didn't spring fully-formed from Henry Ford's noggin without any precedent, you know.

Was Gygax bright? Most certainly. And I thank him for what he gave us. But game design didn't begin and end with him.
 

Nobody is saying Ford wasn't a genius. But then, nobody is saying that he is the end-all, be-all of car design, either. Nobody is saying we should be driving Model Ts today. And, it isn't as if Ford wasn't taking much of the general "design" of his car from the surrey and other vehicles that came before him. The automobile didn't spring fully-formed from Henry Ford's noggin without any precedent, you know.

Was Gygax bright? Most certainly. And I thank him for what he gave us. But game design didn't begin and end with him.

Gary and Arneson designed and built a transformative, groundbreaking game out of nothing, correct? That involves game design, last time I checked.

Anyone who achieves such a thing cannot be referred to as a bad game designer. You can't separate the game from the man (or men, or women), who created it, for without them it wouldn't exist. Ergo, since D&D is a work of pure genius that took off like wildfire and spawned an entire industry still thriving to this day, he can't be reffered to as a "poor game designer", because those two statements are not compatible. Either he was a bad game designer and made terrible games as a result, or he was a genius and designed a great game. The proper way to refer to such a person, if we're being honest here, is to call him a game design genius.

Otherwise we're just attributing the success of D&D to non-human agency. Maybe he was given the PHB in a stone tablet and merely applied for the business license. That's what I would call an entrepreneur. But since he created it out of nothing, himself, he deserves the entire credit for his creation, and all subsequent praise of this hobby owes him a tithe of respect.

And just because he made some stinker RPGs later on, doesn't retroactively change his status as a game design genius. George Lucas made some stinkers later in his career too, but I don't think anyone would have much credibility to call him anything but a genius filmmaker. Star Wars isn't necessarily the be all and end all of movies, but it's probably pretty close to it, for a large segment of the human race.

What I would say is that as men get older, they can tend to jump the shark and Gygax is no exception. I would definitely say his career arc mimicks Lucas in the way they fell out of grace. But their original work was most definitely pure genius by popular estimation, and influence. It just lacks credibility for me to read that he wasn't a good game designer. People since him WISH they could be as bad a game designer as he was, in that case, for all the notoriety their own inventions achieved.

By that standard, he was the Einstein of game design. Nobody else comes close in table top. If they do, where is their D&D? They should just admit that maybe their inventions just aren't that great, and go back to the drawing board until they come up with something worth arguing about on internet forums 40 years from now.
 
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By that standard, he was the Einstein of game design.

I think Gygax is more the Freud of game design. He invented something important that has had important, and far reaching, impact on the world. And people quickly saw the value of the fundamental thing he proposed. And quickly saw flaws in his specific implementation.

Some people value the original idea more. Others give more weight to the flaws.

Thaumaturge.
 

I will definitely not wade into the debate about Gary's game design skills (that way lies rending of hair, gnashing of teeth, etc.). But I seem to recall from the days when Gary posted that he himself had gone cold on Dangerous Journeys. I doubt he'd have called it 'bad design' but I recollect him saying that it was a very rules intensive game and that afterwards he decided he much preferred rules-lite systems. If I had to guess, I think that Gary-- outside of D&D-- would have preferred to have his design skills judged based on Lejendary Adventures. Alas, I've never actually picked up that game, so I can't tell you what I think. But this thread makes me think that some day I will.

AD

P.S. I'm guessing someone could actually dig up Gary's comments on Dangerous Journeys. I'm pretty sure I read his comments about it here.
 

Empirically, there's a big difference between a designer who's good turning a funny feeling in his nether parts into a prototype that's ready to market, and a designer who's good at iterating on an existing product.

I think Gary's status as being good at the first type of design is at least as well-established as anybody's.

I think Gary's stats as being good at the second type of design is unconfirmed. Yes, he resisted iterating on his initial product, but that means little as practically NOBODY is good at iterating on their own initial design. That doesn't mean he would necessarily be bad at iterating on other people's designs. Also most of his later work in this industry would (I imagine) have been hampered by frustration and anxiety caused by non-design concerns, and these feelings are not generally the friend of good design.
 

Absoulutely. If Shakespeare had only written Hamlet and a bunch of dirty limericks, would he be a talentless hack? Is Tolkien a horrible writer? After all, his only major work is Lord of the Rings.

If Shakespeare had only written Hamlet, he'd be "Oh that guy who wrote Hamlet, right..." and yeah, would definitely NOT be a particularly important figure in the history of English writing. Body of work does count for something - for Shakespeare, it's why he's such a big deal. He didn't knock it out of the park once - he did it over, and over, and over again.

Tolkien was an academic as well as a fiction writer, which you seem to forget, and not only wrote LotR and The Hobbit, but created a huge amount of surrounding material, and operated significantly in the academic sphere, as well as being involved with the Inklings and so on (so influential and perhaps influenced there).

Also, you present an utterly false and worthless dichotomy. So the only things a writer can be are:

A) Amazing and beyond criticism.

or

B) A talentless hack.

You're really pretty much DEFINING "false dichotomy" there, dude... what utter nonsense.

In reality, Tolkien is a vastly important writer, and very talented at certain aspects of writing, but not so talented at others. I'll leave the discussion of the details for another day, but he's neither a talentless hack, nor beyond criticism. I fear you may be a little biased in this area, given your forum name, of course.

Like Gygax and Arneson, what Tolkien does merit, regardless of the quality of his work (even if it were crap, which it was not, thankfully) is special mention because of his extreme importance to the fantasy literature genre - he basically created it - he didn't intend to, but functionally, he did. Sometimes his actual direct influence is overstated (relatively few fantasy writers today, major or minor, are directly influenced by him, and virtually none use similar world-building methods or the like), but that LotR had that effect is utterly undeniable.

I was actually referring to later versions of D&D. There are some great rpgs out their that ARE wonderfully designed. As for D&D, not so much. And yes, that's my opinion, and I could give a crap whether you think it has value or not.

If you really consider all versions of D&D post-1E drivel, I am surprised you follow new editions at all. There is no possibility that you will not consider 5E drivel, if you considered 2E, 3E, and 4E such. So I suspect that either you overstate your position, or you should probably stay out of 5E threads.

I could say the same about 4e D&D, except in that case the art IS horrible, but I'd be lambasted as an edition warrior due to the double standard here.

No, you could not, because certain things can be objectively analyzed, and you would be directly contradicting yourself! 4E is, as much as you may hate it, tightly focused, and extremely well-organised. The former fact is indeed why most people who dislike 4E, dislike it - it doesn't have the breadth or loose-ness of math that previous editions had, which can cause it to become hyper-focused on tactical combat and stress a lot of people out when modifying it.

So it wouldn't be edition-warring, it'd just be obvious nonsense, and people would be confused as to why you were saying it. Just because one dislikes a game, doesn't mean one can randomly criticise it for things that aren't true - I mean, I dislike Vampire: The Masquerade, Revised, but I would never ding it for having terrible mechanics or organisation (certainly it largely improved on prior editions in both departments), whereas I would ding it for "Not getting your own game" (as pretty clearly shown by the reversion to less hard-horror-y and more gothic-vampire-y tropes in V:tR and V:tM20).

On art, much as I dislike 4E's art (and I do), if that's "horrible" (which it may well be), then you need a much strong descriptor for DJ's art. Though perhaps "the apotheosis of bland" would be apposite.

It's been ages since I looked at DJ, but Gary's biggest mistake was trying to divorce himself from copyright. He went out of his way to NOT use any terms from D&D. PC became avatar, there are 18 stats instead of 6, etc. It was also a multi-genre game, much like Gurps. At least TSR thought it enough competition it to bury it forever.

The terminology is not a problem - virtually every non-D&D RPG uses a lot of odd terms. The problem is the mechanics, which is exacerbated by organisation, and the nails are driven into coffin by the default setting (Aerth?), which is ditchwater-dull and shallow-as-can-be, far less interesting than something like Oerth.

Whatever you think of Gary, every rpg publisher since is merely a tribute band.

No. Every OSR game and Retro-Clone, yes. 2E. Yes. Beyond that. No. By that logic, every rock musician is just a tribute band for Big Joe Turner or someone.

That's particularly insulting to Marc Miller and Traveller, I note, which was a hugely important game on a number of levels, and appeared in 1977 (and had basically no mechanical inspiration from D&D, and the conceptual inspiration could arguably be traced to things before D&D). Don't even get me started on how overlooked C&S and Tekumel are these days, either. With all the revisionism you're indulging in, you'd think D&D was alone, and never borrowed ideas from other games.
 
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I think Gygax is more the Freud of game design. He invented something important that has had important, and far reaching, impact on the world. And people quickly saw the value of the fundamental thing he proposed. And quickly saw flaws in his specific implementation.

Some people value the original idea more. Others give more weight to the flaws.

Thaumaturge.

That's a good analogy. I think you can value both, though. I think Freud was amazing and a very important figure. I don't think most of his theories are worth the paper they are written on. I don't see a contradiction there.

If they do, where is their D&D?

Just to be clear, this is a totally illogical and impossible argument, DDNFan. There can only be one "originator". If someone else was important as Gygax and Arneson, then it would be because they created a new field - which would likely not be called RPGs at all, but something. Again, important is not the same as skilled. If nothing else, you should note that it's Gygax and ARNESON who came up with the editions you're talking about - Gygax on his own didn't come up with any editions of D&D, nor any other impressive RPGs (nor did Arneson).

As for "40 years" - well, it's 23 years since Vampire came out - people are still talking about that, and I'm quite certain that in 17 years, when I'm in my 50s, I'll remember Vampire and the WoDs, old and new, very well. I'm pretty sure there will still be the odd hot debate about exactly how much Mage Revised sucked and whether the Technocracy really are evil. Indeed, I'll be surprised if there isn't a new WoD by then. It's 25 since Shadowrun. People still play and discuss that. I should note that Vampire is particularly relevant here, because, like Gygax, Mark Rein*Hagen (who created Vampire, which kept the hobby alive for a lot of people, and added somewhere between hundreds of thousands or millions of players, depending on how you look at LARPs), has also not shown signs of being a particularly awesome game designer, when working post-WW (though mostly he just seems to have disappeared, along with JGT). What about Marc Miller's Traveller, too? That HAS been around over 40 years and is still being played and discussed. I witnessed a violent argument over whether TNE was any good and/or why it was terrible only last year.

Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson are the fathers of role-playing games. I don't think anyone disputes that.

That doesn't entitle all their game design to special "you can't say bad things about their design!!!!" treatment. Period. It just means that people should not say they weren't important, that they didn't matter.

(EDIT - for missing word!)

EDIT - Further, I'd just like to add that, were it not for 3E, I'm pretty sure that we would consider D&D largely as an extinct or relic game, even if 2E products were still being published by some sort of decrepit TSR. Virtually every RPer I knew, by the later '90s, had ditched D&D (or was a member of a group that had played and would played nothing else, and 10 to 20 years older than me)
 
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