D&D 5E 5E: A Danger of Fragmentation?
- Thread starter LurkAway
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I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'm not really convinced that's a problem.LurkAway said:
I expect house rules when I play D&D. It's part of the whole "game with a DM" factor: DMs get to do whatever the heck they want. Always have, always will.
Perhaps it is because I am pretty open to new play experiences, but I don't need them to play my preferred mods to be a happy player. If I'm especially worried about an over-sexual LARP session or something (not really up my alley), I can ask, "What's your game like?", and go from there. Generally, though, I won't turn someone down even based on the edition of their game, let alone which house rules within an edition that will come to pass.
Basically, part of being a D&D player means that you are OK with adapting a bit to the DM and the rest of the group. That shouldn't really be a problem, IMO.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Maybe it does fragment. Maybe it does. But here's the thing...
WIZARDS OF THE COAST has paid a lot of lip service to the idea that "It's all D&D!"...except that never meant anything. It's all well and good to tell a guy like me, an ardent AD&D (1e only) fan that "It's all D&D man - we're all D&D players, it's all the same!"...except of course, y'know, the parent company yanked PDFs, there was the ad campaign for 4e...ahem. It's like they were actively trying to drive off "guys like me" (of ANY edition). Who was it from WIZARDS that said right in these very forums that to him D&D was now 4e, or the occasional older game, but not 3e or 3.5? Anyone remember that?
that's fragmenting; that's divisive.
Maybe you guys and I never ever play the same game. Go look at the forums at rpg.net and somethingawful (yes, they have an RPG forum); there is some serious wailing and gnashing of teeth. There are folks in those places who have a serious hateboner about D&Dn, and are determined to make their stand at 4e (4e grognards...whodathunkit!
) - but the thing is now? Despite of the HUGE chasm separating that kind of gamer and myself, we're all back on the ship. Or rather, we will be. Can be.Even if things are fragmented, this time WIZARDS OF THE COAST are keeping the pieces (that's us!), and all in the same box, instead of throwing a bunch overboard.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to get another cup of this delicious kool-ade.
Despite the fact that we all know (both the company and us players) that the next iteration of the game will not unite everybody, all 100%, of us D&D players into switching to this new game... the one thing that I think they are aiming for is a game that mirrors all the various editions out there... so that players of each of the editions can switch over if they want... or probably more importantly, USE the new stuff that gets released in whatever version of the game they are sticking with.
When most folks talk about "supporting old editions"... they usually are referring to being able to buy PDFs of old material (presumably with nothing done to them or been updated in any way... just electronic scans of the adventures/books). But what if what this #dndnext does is actually create a game system where the NEW products that are created and released for this next iteration actually CAN be used by other players in some form or fashion in their older game edition of choice without them actually needing to switch to "5E" (since the whole purpose of 5E is to make products as compatible with all the editions as possible)? We're now talking about support for older editions even greater than I think most old schoolers would expect or hope for (although the PDF situation would also help out in that regard obviously too).
Doesn't that in some way help rebuild some bridges that had been blown up previously? The fact that they now seem to want to tell all D&D players "We're creating this new iteration of the game with more universal D&D rules, so that each month when we release a new adventure online in Dungeon Magazine, it will be able to be played using not only the new iteration, but also whatever game you currently are still playing with a minimum of adaptation, hassle, and fuss"?
Maybe creating that type of game isn't actually possible (and I'm sure we'll find out soon enough)... but at least we should give them a little bit of credit in seeing if they can. Because if they do manage to pull it off... we all win.
When most folks talk about "supporting old editions"... they usually are referring to being able to buy PDFs of old material (presumably with nothing done to them or been updated in any way... just electronic scans of the adventures/books). But what if what this #dndnext does is actually create a game system where the NEW products that are created and released for this next iteration actually CAN be used by other players in some form or fashion in their older game edition of choice without them actually needing to switch to "5E" (since the whole purpose of 5E is to make products as compatible with all the editions as possible)? We're now talking about support for older editions even greater than I think most old schoolers would expect or hope for (although the PDF situation would also help out in that regard obviously too).
Doesn't that in some way help rebuild some bridges that had been blown up previously? The fact that they now seem to want to tell all D&D players "We're creating this new iteration of the game with more universal D&D rules, so that each month when we release a new adventure online in Dungeon Magazine, it will be able to be played using not only the new iteration, but also whatever game you currently are still playing with a minimum of adaptation, hassle, and fuss"?
Maybe creating that type of game isn't actually possible (and I'm sure we'll find out soon enough)... but at least we should give them a little bit of credit in seeing if they can. Because if they do manage to pull it off... we all win.
This subforum is rife with polite but deep divisions, which is why the market is so fragmented today. And 5E's stated goal is to unite everyone from OD&D to AD&D to 3.X/PF to 4E. If disunity wasn't a problem, then 5E wouldn't have been announced so early with this goal in mind. So in that context, what do you mean that you're not convinced that fractures in playstyle are not a problem?
I would agree only if 5E finds the holy grail, Ultimate D&D, that takes the "best" bits from every edition, and unifies mostly everyone with a giant group hug and only minor tweaking required. In that case, group-specific modularity of that single ruleset is not going to be all that polarizing. (I'd like to believe that, but I can't at this early stage.)
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I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
It's only a problem if you're trying to enforce one playstyle on the entire player base of D&D.
Given the stated goals of 5e -- that any playstyle should be able to come up to it -- it seems that enforcing one playtyle on the entire player base isn't going to be a major concern, so a fractured fan-base is no barrier to a successful game.
I mean, look at the MLB. There's no way the Yankees fans and the Red Sox fans are ever going to play on the same team. But the MLB offers both flavors, and so, regardless of how fractured and angry the Red Sux/Yankees division is, the MLB makes a tidy profit on both breeds of fans.
If you're not trying to offer One True Way, and you're not trying to badwrongfun anyone else, and you're willing to embrace whatever your fans want...divisions aren't anything to sweat. Of COURSE people are divided. That doesn't mean you can't serve all the audiences at once.
WizarDru
Adventurer
From WotC/Hasbro's perspective, they're right. To WotC: OD&D, OSRIC, BD&D, 1E, 2E, 3E, and 3.5E players all have one thing in common: they don't contribute to WotC's continued survival as a company financially in a significant way. It was a poor PR move to stop selling PDFs, but I'd wager it made them very little money (if much at all, after factoring hosting costs, etc.). If you buy TSR products at a convention, that money isn't going to the original authors or WotC or anyone else but that retailer. D&D simply won't survive from that market. WotC has a vested interest in stating the 4E is 'THE' D&D, because their financial well-being depends on it being that way.
Now, I'm not arguing that they've made a lot of PR mistakes. They certainly have. There have been numerous failures on their part. But from a commercial standpoint, they have to convince you to go to 4E...and now 5E. Because that's the product they're selling. I have no idea if DDI is sustaining itself. Perhaps if they could find a way to make licensed, official tools for previous editions, that would monetize an otherwise dead market for those products. But otherwise, WotC will need to sell 5E the same way they sold 4E...and indeed did for 3E. It must slay the previous edition, to some extent, to be successful.
I don't think anyone thinks 5E will appeal to everyone. 3E, arguably the most successful RPG release since AD&D, still had many detractors and folks who didn't cotton to it. But if they convince enough people to buy it, then by all means, do it.
The real trick will be to sell to people like me and my group. We reformed for 3E and rolled into 3.5 with aplomb. 4E....has not set the house on fire. It's good, but hasn't instilled the same passion. And coming so soon on the heels of an edition we feel like we still haven't gotten into (our main game is only now reaching Paragon tier), 5E will have to be VERY compelling to get us to bother spending money on it ALL OVER AGAIN.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Because that's the way WIZARDS wanted it. Not because that's how we wanted it. WOTC looked at 75% of their market base* and said "go away".
It's not 1978 any more, though, Wiz. "Very little money" can make or break your company in RPGs.
Except not, because that's not what they're trying to do any more. Firing a customer base with every new release and hoping some come to ask for their "jobs" back is colossally stupid. I can go get parts for a '71 El Camino at the CHEVROLET dealership. Some, anyway. I can get more from authorized 3rd party vendors. What GM hasn't done is said "What, you don't wanna buy a new car?
you, then!" And yet 41 years of models and makes stand between that year and now. And there we are.Robert Plant never came out and said "We'd prefer it if our fans quit listening to everything prior to our new album." FRITO LAY hasn't quietly stopped making everything but Sweet Chili Doritos. Hell if I plugged in my ol' Pentium and installed WINDOWS 98 and did auto-update I'd get six years worth of patches to download - just for the OS itself. Apps that run on it are still supported.
WIZARDS OF THE COAST isn't trying some radical new thing that may or may not work. They're doing what sane businesses have been doing since products and services were offered for sale in these modern times. They are stopping the alienation of previous customers, and are at least from where I'm sitting no longer going to treat those customers like pariahs.
I think there's going to finally be a real, honest attempt at a "big tent". Even if the tent itself is crowded with 4e and D&Dn, the yard its in won't be closed off to myself and other fans of older editions.
That's what I think people who play 4e need to recognize - this isn't an end, it's a continuance. For D&D 3.5, 3.0, AD&D 2nd edition and AD&D it's a continuance whose commencement has been years stalled.
WIZARDS OF THE COAST is doing the right thing, they're opening the gate, even if D&Dn isn't the game, support for "your" D&D looks like it'll be there.
It is literally win-win.
...
*=Fully (and rightly, and accurately) expecting that 75% of that 75% would move to the next edition.
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foolish_mortals
First Post
I don't know what's going to happen. I already think that the Pathfinder people are long gone. I'm trying to measure how many 4e'rs think that they've been betrayed:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-ho...ast-lie-d-d-4th-edition-players-about-5e.html
it's a grim thing that dungeon master guy was talking about. If it's widespread the real core group of 5th editioners might be 1rst and 2nd edition players. I wasn't expecting to see what the dm guy was talking about and am starting to wonder if 5th is already sunk.
foolish_mortals
http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-ho...ast-lie-d-d-4th-edition-players-about-5e.html
it's a grim thing that dungeon master guy was talking about. If it's widespread the real core group of 5th editioners might be 1rst and 2nd edition players. I wasn't expecting to see what the dm guy was talking about and am starting to wonder if 5th is already sunk.
foolish_mortals
I don't think the Pathfinder people are long gone - gamers are gamers. And that video was laughable.
The only thing sunk about 5th edition at this point is the constant whining and naysaying about it.
WizarDru
Adventurer
I think the real question is how much money was that market base actually spending? I don't know. My expectation, though, is that it wasn't economically worth WotC/Hasbro's time to support two editions. WotC is a company that lays off people pretty much annually, now, so I suspect they look purely at the numbers and decide how to make the most money for the least amount of manpower. I'm not arguing if they're right or wrong, just pointing out what their institutional thought process might be. I think they make bad choices all along the line, usually fostered by Hasbro. I think you're right that the PDFs are a revenue stream, but I think we diverge on whether it's significant enough for them to consider bothering.
I also think your analogy about cars and Led Zeppelin miss the mark. A better analogy might be the band Genesis. Fans of Peter Gabriel's version of Genesis enjoyed their Progressive rock sound and ethereal lyrics and music. But when he left, Genesis changed over successive albums to have a much more pop music sound under Phil Collins. People became fans of that incarnation of Genesis who had no interest in the previous version and vice-versa. [Those who wish to make a case that 4E is like the Ray Wilson-led version of the band are welcome to do so.
] Old D&D is EXACTLY like that El Camino. You can still buy those old D&D books and you can even get custom 3rd party replacement parts (hello, OSRIC). You just can't get 'official' new releases...any more than Chevrolet is planning on producing more 1971 models on the factory. But you can't buy them at a Chevrolet lot any longer.
If all you're saying is 'WotC was openly dismissive of users of previous editions before and now they're not'? OK, I get that. I'm not sure that I ever interpreted their previous statements and actions with the malice some folks clearly did. I think they could have done a much better job and actively harmed the brand more than once with poor marketing. I think you're spot-on on that point.
It just has sounded to me like many folks expected WotC to actively support the old editions into perpetuity...something I don't think is realistic and never was. If WotC was smart, however, they would do stuff like release old versions of the game into the OGL, not unlike how id Software released the source code of Doom and Quake 3 into the public domain. I think they need to change the way they generate profit...but I think Hasbro is too behind the curve on IP and technology to understand that.
And WotC has fired every person who might have ever helped them do that. Maybe the fact that they've hired back some of the architects of 3E will reverse that trend.
I have not read the rest of the thrad yet but I want ot coment on this. While i agree that D&D is hugely fragmented and not really convinced that 5e can achieve its aims a VTT is not a panacea.
In my opinion many people that play MMOs would be willing to play D&D online as long as the barriers to entry was a low as an MMO but D&D requires a DM. A VTT does not solve the DM problem. This is and has always been the limiting factor in the spread of ttrpgs.
howandwhy99
Adventurer
Actually, yes. I think D&D is a language. And for me it's very much a philosophy-like language game. But to stay on point, there are no required material elements for many game players. What is it exactly that makes us think "Those people are playing D&D". It isn't the gestures. It isn't minis or a grid. I'll give you most people use dice, but some don't even use those. It's the language. And retaining that language is important as you said. How this new game defines our game's words will change both play and the culture of our community. (Maybe they'll include a nice glossary again in the core books? Who knows?)
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