D&D 5E 5E and Sense of Accomplishment

[Ruin Explorer]

I wouldn't say highly optimized, I have only got implement focus, dual implement spellcaster, destructive wizardry, hellfire blood to boost my damage and Gauntlets of Blood to boost my damage. I am pretty sure an optimized character could have gotten that static +14 to +22 damage bonus up at least ten higher. Just changing to Genasi would increase the damage bonus by five (strength to damage).

That's like 8.5 on the optimization scale, though (where a normal PC made with no attempt to optimize is 0 - an anti-optimized PC is a negative number), and if that's not high to you...! The rest you're suggesting is ultra-optimization of the most extreme kind.

My DDI isn't working right now but it Glorious Presence appears to be a class feature specific to a class in Heroes of the Feywild, not a normal Wizard 1 power - hence Improved Glorious Presence (a power, not a feat) and so on.

I don't actually know the suck-or die powers in 4e, but you have Face of Death (level 9 daily) or Sleep (level 1 daily) which can totally ruin encounters in the right hands. For instance a character that is optimized in the regards gives something like a -5 to -10 penalty to saves, (discussed here: http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/2071436 )

Duuuuude. Thread is from 5 years ago. Everything there got nerfed to hell when save penalties were made to only work on the first save and/or have other weaknesses. You can still do some funky stuff but it's hard damn work and costs you a lot. You might not want to rely on Ye Anciente Builde!

 

[Blackwarder]

Derailed! Ten points.

Warder

 

[Blackbrrd]

That's like 8.5 on the optimization scale, though (where a normal PC made with no attempt to optimize is 0 - an anti-optimized PC is a negative number), and if that's not high to you...! The rest you're suggesting is ultra-optimization of the most extreme kind.

My DDI isn't working right now but it Glorious Presence appears to be a class feature specific to a class in Heroes of the Feywild, not a normal Wizard 1 power - hence Improved Glorious Presence (a power, not a feat) and so on.

The character isn't optimized when you can add +12 to the static damage modifier and get it from +14 to +26. That's a huuuuge gap.

Regarding Glorious Presence, I just checked it, you can select it as any random level 1 wizard in the character builder. Improved Glorious Presence is a level 13 wizard attack encounter power.

Duuuuude. Thread is from 5 years ago. Everything there got nerfed to hell when save penalties were made to only work on the first save and/or have other weaknesses. You can still do some funky stuff but it's hard damn work and costs you a lot. You might not want to rely on Ye Anciente Builde!

In that case, I think you might be wrong about the AoE damage from controllers being un-optimized. If you don't have those rediculess save penalties, those save-or-die spells suddenly aren't so reliable, and control-oriented characters are much weaker.

As noted above, you can at level 13 have a +26 to 33 static damage bonus for your "lousy" lightning bolt. 2d6+(26-33) damage vs three opponents within 10sq? Sounds good to me. If all five players in a party where Wizards, you could do 10d6+159 damage to three opponents, or about 194 damage to three opponents, very likely taking them out in the first round, while only expending a level 7 encounter power each.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The character isn't optimized when you can add +12 to the static damage modifier and get it from +14 to +26. That's a huuuuge gap.

Regarding Glorious Presence, I just checked it, you can select it as any random level 1 wizard in the character builder. Improved Glorious Presence is a level 13 wizard attack encounter power.

I'm pretty sure it's specific to a certain kind of Wizard, it's certainly from Heroes of the Feywild, but I can't prove it, so I'll leave that. Still, obscure powers like that - that's serious optimization.

+14 to 26 is a sizeable gap, for sure. It is also the smallest gap in a modern edition of D&D, in terms of real-game effectiveness (not numbers). It's also extremely unlikely to be that big, because even my most lax players are able to get to a pretty good level of bonus damage and so on.

In that case, I think you might be wrong about the AoE damage from controllers being un-optimized. If you don't have those rediculess save penalties, those save-or-die spells suddenly aren't so reliable, and control-oriented characters are much weaker.

"Much weaker" in the sense that they no longer literally break the game, yeah, sure, but they're still very strong. The main trick is to use EONT powers rather than save-based ones if you want to mess up Solos and Elites. Some can still dump them but it usually costs them something, and some can't dump the CC at all.

As noted above, you can at level 13 have a +26 to 33 static damage bonus for your "lousy" lightning bolt. 2d6+(26-33) damage vs three opponents within 10sq? Sounds good to me. If all five players in a party where Wizards, you could do 10d6+159 damage to three opponents, or about 194 damage to three opponents, very likely taking them out in the first round, while only expending a level 7 encounter power each.

Bzzzzt! Severe math fail.

You're forgetting the to-hit rolls. On average, they're going to have something like a 45-70% chance to hit, depending on the enemies, lighting conditions, cover, Feats and so on (Lightning Bolt doesn't get to ignore any of these, AFAIK). IIRC, Lightning Bolt requires three separate to hit rolls (do I not RC? Wish my DDI was working ).

So the chances of all three Wizards hitting at all are low, and the chances them all hitting the same monsters are similarly low. It is rather unlikely that they will manage to take out three Standard enemies that way. 194 damage will not be enough to take out any Elite or Solo enemies, even if all three hit (though it would sting!). Even if I misremember and Lightning Bolt is one roll for three hits (and I'd be surprised if I do), it's quite likely 1 or 2 will miss.

So that's actually only "okay". It's not Ranger-level damage, but it's not terrible either. Further, your three Wizards NEED to take people down fast because they have relatively low HP and usually lower AC (not always, but these guys will) than other classes, so if anything, they're kind of underperforming here. CC'ing the same enemies and letting a good striker get to work would probably have better results overall.

 

[Blackwarder]

Would you two take your 4e AOE discussion into private? And while you at it apologize to the OP for derailing his thread.

Warder

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Would you two take your 4e AOE discussion into private? And while you at it apologize to the OP for derailing his thread.

Warder

I'm happy to take the AoE discussion elsewhere! However, I really think exile (or the mods) is the one who determines whether an apology is needed, and it seems very strange for you to demand it on his behalf, I must say, especially given that I made the last on-topic post in this thread and was responding directly to him (and confirming his theory!).

 

[Blackbrrd]

I'm pretty sure it's specific to a certain kind of Wizard, it's certainly from Heroes of the Feywild, but I can't prove it, so I'll leave that. Still, obscure powers like that - that's serious optimization.

+14 to 26 is a sizeable gap, for sure. It is also the smallest gap in a modern edition of D&D, in terms of real-game effectiveness (not numbers). It's also extremely unlikely to be that big, because even my most lax players are able to get to a pretty good level of bonus damage and so on.



"Much weaker" in the sense that they no longer literally break the game, yeah, sure, but they're still very strong. The main trick is to use EONT powers rather than save-based ones if you want to mess up Solos and Elites. Some can still dump them but it usually costs them something, and some can't dump the CC at all.



Bzzzzt! Severe math fail.

You're forgetting the to-hit rolls. On average, they're going to have something like a 45-70% chance to hit, depending on the enemies, lighting conditions, cover, Feats and so on (Lightning Bolt doesn't get to ignore any of these, AFAIK). IIRC, Lightning Bolt requires three separate to hit rolls (do I not RC? Wish my DDI was working ).

So the chances of all three Wizards hitting at all are low, and the chances them all hitting the same monsters are similarly low. It is rather unlikely that they will manage to take out three Standard enemies that way. 194 damage will not be enough to take out any Elite or Solo enemies, even if all three hit (though it would sting!). Even if I misremember and Lightning Bolt is one roll for three hits (and I'd be surprised if I do), it's quite likely 1 or 2 will miss.

So that's actually only "okay". It's not Ranger-level damage, but it's not terrible either. Further, your three Wizards NEED to take people down fast because they have relatively low HP and usually lower AC (not always, but these guys will) than other classes, so if anything, they're kind of underperforming here. CC'ing the same enemies and letting a good striker get to work would probably have better results overall.

Bzzt! Jumping to conclusions again! You are forgetting that Lightning Bolt does half damage on a miss. So, let's say you hit 60% of the time and you get half damage for the last 40%, the damage would be 80% of 194 = 155.

Glorious Prescence is a bog standard wizard attack power that you can choose in the character builder. I even checked the character builder for you. I think you are mixing it up with something.

 

[Mistwell]

Seriously, your discussion of 4e (and 3e somewhat) has no place in this 5e thread. Take it elsewhere, you've hijacked a thread. Nobody but you guys is even reading what you're writing to each other, and you guys are not convincing each other of anything, so what was the point of doing that to this thread?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Seriously, your discussion of 4e (and 3e somewhat) has no place in this 5e thread. Take it elsewhere, you've hijacked a thread. Nobody but you guys is even reading what you're writing to each other, and you guys are not convincing each other of anything, so what was the point of doing that to this thread?

Few hours late dude, we already did. Those two posted at the same time, effectively.

 

[exile]

Fwiw, no apology needed on my end. Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this topic. And, while off topic, I even read a little of the 4e aoe damage discussion.