D&D 5E (2014) 5E Cheese

[CapnZapp]

There's a fine line between game balance and farce?

Yeah, not trying to defend any particular sequence of actions here.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Guest 6801328]

... is hit hide hit hide in melee or ranged?

If it's ranged, that's cheese fondue range of cheesiness. If it's in melee we are now talking cheese enema...

The idea is that you shoot, then duck behind something (which if you're a Hobbit could be the Wizard), use Hide as your bonus action, roll Stealth, and if successful on the next round you pop out with Advantage. It's like a Limberger and Roquefort smoothie.

In melee you'd have to move away to get behind something, provoking an opportunity attack. So I've never seen that used/tried. But maybe I'm just sheltered...

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Guest 6801328]

Mobile feat.
Swashbuckler (fancy footwork).
And so on.

The Velveeta is getting warm.

With Mobile:
- It costs you a Feat
- You can still provoke AoO from other enemies
- You can't sneak up on people in combat and stay hidden*

So, yeah, the cheese is there. But it's not nearly as mouldy as the ranged version.


*PHB:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen."

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm sorry, but if you are an archer, hide behind a barrel... you can't pop out form the barrel and shoot an opponent *who knows you're behind the barrel!!!* and expect it to work. That's too much cheese. Now if you hide in the bushes, spend a round repositioning, then fire from a completely different spot - a spot the enemy is NOT expecting you to be - then yeah, that does work.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Yes, Bard "magic" doesn't sit well with me.

But for the most limberger-esque? "Ok, so you are down 114hp and have 2 left. [rolls dice] Right, the night passes uneventfully. You wake up in the morning and are fully healed. ... yay ..."

THAT is/was the most cheesiest of things we found in 5e. In fact, it was the only rule we nixed the moment it came up during our very first session of playing 5e. We like to try a system at it's base core first...but that was just something we knew wasn't going to work for us at all.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Ancalagon]

Hiya!

Yes, Bard "magic" doesn't sit well with me.

But for the most limberger-esque? "Ok, so you are down 114hp and have 2 left. [rolls dice] Right, the night passes uneventfully. You wake up in the morning and are fully healed. ... yay ..."

THAT is/was the most cheesiest of things we found in 5e. In fact, it was the only rule we nixed the moment it came up during our very first session of playing 5e. We like to try a system at it's base core first...but that was just something we knew wasn't going to work for us at all.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I was under the impression that 5e had a lot of natural healing *before* I knew about the overnight full heal bit.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'm sorry, but if you are an archer, hide behind a barrel... you can't pop out form the barrel and shoot an opponent *who knows you're behind the barrel!!!* and expect it to work. That's too much cheese. Now if you hide in the bushes, spend a round repositioning, then fire from a completely different spot - a spot the enemy is NOT expecting you to be - then yeah, that does work.

This debate goes round and round and round, doesn't it?

One question is whether "knowing you're behind the barrel" negates the mechanical advantage of coming out of stealth. I suspect if you went invisible and then popped out of invisibility you'd be ok with it, but really what's the difference? That in once case the enemy knows where the arrow is coming from and in the other he doesn't?

Ok, what if you're standing on a 3' diameter pillar, surrounded by lava, and you go invisible. Should you get Advantage if you shoot from Stealth? I mean, the enemy KNOWS YOU'RE ON THE PILLAR, right?

Let's look at Blindsense vs. Blindsight: with Blindsense you know where your enemies are, but you still attack them from Disadvantage because you can't actually see them. Well, this seems like it's the inverse case: the enemy knows you're behind the barrel, but can't actually see you. You wait until he blinks (or, more reasonably, glances away to deflect an incoming blow) and then you pop out and ZAP!!!!

Why does it work? Well, why should ranged attacks coming out of stealth during combat *ever* get Advantage? I'm not sure I have a good answer to that, but they do, and given that they do I'm not sure I think this case is any less probable.

Another way of looking at it is that if the presence of bushes, as you describe, or perhaps more barrels, or really just any way for the rogue to change location once stealthed, if any of those things suddenly make it ok, then we've taken a nice, generic rule that works well in theater of the mind and all of the sudden introduced messy tactical complications. "Ok, how far away is the other barrel? What's the maximum distance for me to be able to get the mechanical benefit? Well how about the chest, then, can I use that? What do you mean too small?" Etc.

Honestly I don't want to have to worry about those things, and doing so really isn't in the spirit of 5e. It's really much, much simpler to simply rule "If you have full cover you can Hide, and if you are Hidden you can roll Stealth when you come out of Hiding, and if you succeed you can then attack with Advantage."

Now, I still think this is cheesy, especially if you do it over and over again every fight. It just feels like abuse of mechanics. But whether or not it's "realistic" (in the sense that anything in D&D is realistic) I think depends on whether you distinguish between knowing where somebody is and actually seeing them, and if that distinction impacts the stealth rules. (I think it does.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As the title says what in 5E do you find cheesy? This can be for any reason, mechanical, fluff, feel, vibe etc..

The following are cheesey/munchkin because they don't fit the rules of the game as written and yields extra power: using crossbow expert bonus attacks without having two crossbows, greatberry, applying GWF rerolls to Paladin smites, Conjure Eight Pixies.

The following are cheesy because even though they fit the rules of the game, they are gimmicky and don't make sense in-character: Paladins smiting only after they crit, using Inspiring Leader on skeletons and zombies.

The following are cheesy because they make the game pointlessly easy: optimized magical healing, armies of summoned/planar bound creatures or animated undead, magical items, reaching twentieth level.

;-)