5e combat system too simple / boring?

[devincutler]

The same applies as long as you have fewer than 10 hps, so apart from the tougher melee types, everyone dies easier in 5e than any prior ed, at first level.
That's gotta count for something in terms of being 'deadly.'

This is so false I am taken aback. Than in ANY prior edition? Really?

Original D&D. Magic-User. 1st level. Roll a d4. Did you roll a 1? Do you have a Con less than 15? Welcome to 1 hp and you DIE if you lose it. Thanks for playing. Come again.

As I recall, even in 1st edition you died easier as a 1st level wizard than you do in 5th edition.

 

[devincutler]

Reasons abound for unconscious PCs to be the target of attacks. They could be included in an AOE. An enemy might try to use attacking the PC as leverage to get the other still-standing PCs to surrender. A monstrosity or undead might just want to chow down. An NPC might be so full of rage or evil that mutilating the body of a fallen foe is a priority over the other PCs. And so on.

I just don't think it's a fair criticism to say that D&D 5e's mechanics make it less deadly than other systems if one is willing to take a perfectly viable means of threatening the PCs off the table. I think this is especially so when there are rules specifically for taking damage at 0 hit points (counts as failed death save).

There is almost no reason to attack downed PCs unless they keep getting up again. Remember, most NPCs and monsters have their own lives and are not willing to sacrifice their own to take out a foe. Even hungry creatures tend to desire to eat a meal in peace. As well, a captured enemy is far more useful than a dead one. It can be tortured for information, sacrificed to a deity at an altar, made sport of, held for ransom, et al. There is really, aside from a final hopeless lashing out or a foe who keeps re-entering combat, to attack a downed foe.

 

[devincutler]

I just don't understand how anyone who played 2E or 3.5 could argue there is any comparison in lethality between the systems. In the older editions character deaths inevitably happened throughout a campaign from time to time. It just doesn't seem to happen in 5E...again, unless the party is at the point of being TPKd. Having just one character make a wrong move and suddenly end up pushing up daisies before they can be aided by a teammate or more likely just stabilize on his own (that last part is utterly ridiculous) is simply something that doesn't happen in 5E.

And even if you die...so what? Revivify is a 3rd level spell and coming back from death now doesn't even cost you a level...just gold and we all know there is almost nothing to spend money on in 5th edition. Aside from TPKs, after 4th level death is absolutely meaningless in 5th edition.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Than in ANY prior edition? Really?

As long as the -10 'death door' option was in use in 1e, sure. Not so sure about 0D&D, no death door option back then, IIRC, so it can claim deadlierness in that sense, in that limited corner case, if you like.

Original D&D. Magic-User. 1st level. Roll a d4.

Or not, there were a lot of starting-hp variants back then. Max was common, as it is in 5e. 5e has variants too, of course, but they could (inconceivably) include rolling at 1st level (sucky as it would be to instantly die upon taking 2hps).

But, yeah, if your CON penalty and/or roll made you bump up against the 1hp minimum in 1e, you were 11 hps away from death instead of 12 for the 6 hp 5e wizard I was talking about. Of course, add a CON penalty, even just an 8 CON for a -1, and your 5e wizard is 10 hps away from instant death.

So, yeah, 'fraid so.

Of course, it more than makes up for it as you go. Everyone gets full CON bonus to every HD and gets a HD every level straight through 20th...

...but, right at first, weirdly lethal. It's like a sheep in wolf's clothing or something.

 

[Huntsman57]

I am playing a battlerager with 3 levels of fighter (champion) for the critical hits.

While at first it might seem I have no choices in combat but rolling a D20, this is entirely wrong. Let's see what this non spellcasting class has as combat choices (including GWM feat):

1. Swing great axe

2. Rage (bonus action)

3. Reckless attack (a very important high risk high reward option available every single round)

4. Great Weapon Master "power attack" (-5 to attack, +10 to damage) available every single round

5. Extra Dash action (bonus action while raging)

6. Spiked armour bonus attack (bonus action while raging)

7. Grapple (causing spiked armour damage while raging)

8. Second wind (bonus action, 1 per short rest)

9. Action surge (1 per short rest)

10. Bonus greataxe attack on a critical or bringing opponent to zero hp (bonus action)

As you can see, I have 10 different options to consider, with 5 of them competing for my bonus action slot. This doesn't consider other options like using an item, dodging, or shoving.

Every class has a nice array of things they can do in combat aside from simply rolling a D20 to make an attack. The only exception is the Fighter (champion) path, and that was specifically made simple to allow newbies to be able to step right up and play a character of any level.

I love that about 5E. I'm playing a Battlemaster/Abjurer. In addition to my regular attacks I can use my bonus action to feint, misty step, or 2nd wind while I can use my reaction to cast shield, feather fall, absorb elements, counterspell, parry, or riposte. At the same time I'm managing my arcane ward. I love bonus actions and reactions..so many options! I've got my other spells on top of that along with action surge.

 

[Huntsman57]

death is absolutely meaningless in 5th edition.

Indeed. Of course I can always house rule the crap out of this aspect of the game. Perhaps we should remove spells like Revivify, and make a single failed death save mean instant death. In addition to that, instituting 2E "Combat and Tactics" and Skills and Powers" crits would be a nice touch. I would probably also consider reducing the hitpoints that can be recovered per hit die from a short rest and put a cap on the hitpoints that can be recovered in this way so that even after bandaging yourself up you're still injured. I might also re-introduce certain save or suck effects. What I'm most tentative about is how to change the death from massive damage rule so that it's a factor without being too lethal.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What I'm most tentative about is how to change the death from massive damage rule so that it's a factor without being too lethal.

You could make it -10 or -CONscore instead of -hp. That'd make it less deadly at very low level, but less cushy at high level.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...but, right at first, weirdly lethal. It's like a sheep in wolf's clothing or something.

I don't think 5th edition is actually quite as "weirdly lethal" as it seems to someone who has some prior knowledge of D&D versions besides 5th, or at least I don't think anyone that actually reads and understands the various bits of advice and guidance that 5th edition gives on establishing and running encounters is going to find quite as much lethality as folks coming to 5th edition with confidence that they know how to run a game are finding.

Of course, that is likely me over-estimating the ability of brand-new DMs to counter-balance how most folks underestimate them... and possibly projecting that because I've not had a single character death at all, let alone the "well, something crit so someone died" that other version of the game made a common occurrence no matter the level of the characters involved, that other folks having characters die (unexpectedly, at least) are doing something that they don't have to be doing to cause those events.

 

[devincutler]

Indeed. Of course I can always house rule the crap out of this aspect of the game. Perhaps we should remove spells like Revivify, and make a single failed death save mean instant death. In addition to that, instituting 2E "Combat and Tactics" and Skills and Powers" crits would be a nice touch. I would probably also consider reducing the hitpoints that can be recovered per hit die from a short rest and put a cap on the hitpoints that can be recovered in this way so that even after bandaging yourself up you're still injured. I might also re-introduce certain save or suck effects. What I'm most tentative about is how to change the death from massive damage rule so that it's a factor without being too lethal.

I use the same rule I used in my 3.5 campaign. It's called The Touch of Mergurr (Mergurr is my world's God of Death).

Every time you come back from the dead, your soul becomes more and more desirous to spend its eternity in the afterlife, and you gain 1 point in Touch of Mergurr. In order to resist the allure of the afterlife, you must make a check against the Touch of Mergurr. Failure of this check means your soul is not willing or able to come back to the body and that person is permanently dead.

The DC for the Touch of Mergurr check starts at DC 5. You add your Con, Wis, and Cha mods to the check. However, a 1 is always a failure, 20 is always a success. This check can NEVER be modified by any ability, feat, spell or item, including those that raise your stats. Only inherent bonuses (if playing 3.5) count. For each point of Touch of Mergurr you have, the DC increases by 1.

So, a PC with a 16 Wis, 14 Con, and 20 Cha will have a net +10 modifier. That means he will come back on anything but a 1 until he has died 7 times.

This rule makes death survivable, but still something to be avoided because you can always roll that 1 and tear up your character sheet.

 

[iserith]

Yes, aside from the stray AOE, or maybe something lacking a sense of self preservation like a demon on the prime without fear of permadeath and more interested in causing harm than surviving...or possibly something with an extreme degree of aggression relative to a very low intelligence. Anything with a 5+ intelligence that can feel pain and die and is sane is simply not going to attack a downed creature as a priority. The small remainder? Maybe they would, and maybe they wouldn't.

There is almost no reason to attack downed PCs unless they keep getting up again. Remember, most NPCs and monsters have their own lives and are not willing to sacrifice their own to take out a foe. Even hungry creatures tend to desire to eat a meal in peace. As well, a captured enemy is far more useful than a dead one. It can be tortured for information, sacrificed to a deity at an altar, made sport of, held for ransom, et al. There is really, aside from a final hopeless lashing out or a foe who keeps re-entering combat, to attack a downed foe.

So I think I see the issue at play here.

You don't want to attack dying PCs, so you imagine reasons why monsters won't do it.

I do want to attack dying PCs, so I imagine reasons why they might.

Which approach makes the game deadlier and imparts a greater sense of risk to the players?