D&D General 5e D&D to OSR pipeline or circle?

Not really. OSR was originally based on a desire to play and provide continued support for TSR D&D. That is its origins. That is what it was initially based on.
I remember hearing about OSRIC for the first time -- on this very site! -- and saying "huh, I guess that's interesting; no desire to play it, though," having paid my dues with 1E and never wanting to consult a to-hit or saving throw table again.

It was only after OSR began to mutate and flower beyond the retroclone stage that I became interested. I had played those original games and stopped playing them for a reason. (Seriously, the unified d20 resolution mechanic of 3E got my players and I so excited when we heard about it.)
 

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I personally don't give a rats behind about the myth of how old school D&D was played nor do I particularly care how you played your games in the olden days.
The weird bit is the myth is that back-in-the-day D&D was not played as the OSR plays now. The truth is it was. We played exactly the same way. The kids just rediscovered what us old folks were doing when we were kids and slapped a label on it. I know you don't care, but I was there, Gandalf. I was there, 3000 years ago...
 

Other than psionics-heavy settings (so, Dark Sun), I think you can probably run any 2E setting with OSR systems. Over on the Shadowdark Facebook group, there's a sizable contingent of people who just use Shadowdark to run their old TSR content.
There are enough psionic add-ons that you could run darksun as well, I think, I'm considering porting over the stars without number psionics rules (or at least the old version of the rules, they seem to have changed since the last time I downloaded the game). There's also PX1 psionics for BX. Somewhere, I've even downloaded the OSE conversion of dark sun that someone did. I assume it has psionics rules but would have to reread it.
 

Not to mention adventure design. The best OSR adventures run rings around even the best TSR adventures. That's not an attack on anyone at TSR -- they were figuring out all of this stuff on the fly, in public. But the best OSR adventures of today are so much better designed than anything that came out in the duo-tone module era of TSR (or earlier).
Phenomenal layout. Clear presentation. I don't have to read through giant walls of text about the basics of the adventure or key things that I need to know to run it. It makes things much easier and quicker to run. Sometimes less is more.

I don't know of any OSR games that have either of them by default, although I know there's a Dark Sun style setting for Shadowdark.

I suspect, in both cases, there might be third party add on modules for existing OSR games.
There are psionics in both Stars and Worlds Without Number. However, there are not really specialty priests. WWN has a "blood priest" as a mage option for those who like to play more traditional clerics. However, you otherwise don't really play clerics in WWN, as you would probably just pick Healer as your mage tradition and pick up a religious background.

Also, I believe that OSE has psionics and a psion class in Issue #1 of Planar Compass.

What I don't like about most other OSR games is the "dungeon" focus. OSE, Shadowdark, etc., all assume stuff like gold = XP, skimp over exploration rules, have monsters that have no place in a world ecology or information about how to use them in a setting - as if they're all designed for monster hotels. In 2E we rarely went to a dungeon, and even when we did, they were more like 5-room dungeons from modern design. It was cross-country, urban, open seas, wilderness survival, etc.
For a change of pace, you should potentially check out Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures. It's an OSR game about playing (mostly) young adult characters from fantasy series like the Chronicles of Prydain or A Wizard of Earthsea. You can run it for a one-shot adventure, where players can roll up characters that are connected to the adventure. It's not really about dungeon crawling as it is about dealing with folkloric problems of a village: e.g., missing magical pig, fairy queen causing problems, sheep-stealing goblins, etc.
 

"Old school" isn't trying to describe a period, though, so much as a genre that peaked during a certain period.

I'm quite aware that "epic" RPGing didn't begin with DL - seven years ago I started a thread discussing Lew Pulsipher's account of various playstyles back in the late 70s: DMing philosophy, from Lewis Pulsipher

But the DL tag is a handy way to both describe the style, and to point to the time when it really became the mainstream (which AD&D 2nd ed than rendered "official").
I find those handy shortcuts to be part of the problem though. Regardless, I’m not a fan of the descriptor of the genre because again, it is used as a superiority kind of thing. If it is strictly based on the DM builds a dungeon, PCs adventure in that dungeon, and the PC itself is disposable - I.E. come prepared with multiple PCs because you’ll probably be losing 2 or 3, then that is very much not the kind of game I played with my friends even back in the 80s.
 

Ooh, Beyond the Wall (and Flatland Games' other OSR games) is a great choice for wanting a real roleplaying background in OSR games. Again, the game really can't get started without characters having backgrounds and bonds and it's done wonderfully in Beyond the Wall especially. (And hilariously in Grizzled Adventurers -- my players loved talking smack about randomly generated backstory incidents.)
 

Not really. OSR was originally based on a desire to play and provide continued support for TSR D&D. That is its origins. That is what it was initially based on.

The principles and historical revisionism came later, in part when online groups began applying "system matters" to TSR D&D to critically evaluate the sort of experiences that these older games, particularly B/X, cultivated per RAW.* However, I think that focusing on this revisionism is missing the forest for the trees that most people are playing these games because they find them fun. I personally don't give a rats behind about the myth of how old school D&D was played nor do I particularly care how you played your games in the olden days. I care about whether games are fun or not - and whether they deliver the experience they claim they do - and those are the games that I play.

* There was even a great post on Google+ where Luke Crane (i.e., Burning Wheel, Torchbearer, Mouse Guard) talked about his experiences of running B/X per the rules. He admired the game quite a bit as a game.


How so? An emergent story does not preclude roleplaying your character. Not being guided through a GM's pre-authored adventure does not preclude roleplaying your character. Dungeon-crawling and exploration does not preclude roleplaying your character.

I think that this view seems to presuppose a narrow, if not yucky gatekeeping OneTrueWay, sense of roleplaying. Pardon my French, but screw that crap.

Furthermore, can you not see how adventure paths, metaplots, and the Hickman Revolution could also be construed as antithetical to the fundamental notion of roleplaying? If my character's goals and backstory don't matter or move the needle much because of the pre-authored GM adventure, then isn't the player just along for the ride? That is certainly the feeling that I get when playing a number of APs.

As I said before, if I know that the GM has an adventure path or story campaign planned, then I'm generally not going to bother creating an elaborate backstory or goals for my character. I will probably save roleplaying that character concept for later, because it's probably not going to matter to the GM or the AP. I will probably just create a character with cool options that I may want to see do cool things, less of a CRPG character and more of an ARPG/MMORPG character.


The fact that you are asking about the existence of games that innovate on OS rather than just recreating 1977 is pretty telling for me, let alone others who are more familiar with the OSR movement.

I don't know what game would satisfy all of your criteria. Again, there is possibly Bugbears & Borderlands, though I don't recall what @Sacrosanct wrote in there about balancing encounters. Possibly Castles & Crusaders, but again, I don't know much about its attitude towards balancing encounters.

There are a number of games younger than D&D 5e, such as the Cypher System, where characters are hardier than starting characters in D&D and APs are common, but balanced encounters isn't really that important for the game. At the very least, I can't recall off the top of my head of Numenera talking about balancing encounters for the PCs. But the Cypher System is hardly OSR, as by some accounts, it would be more of Neo-Trad game. Likewise, games like Fate, PbtA, or Blades in the Dark also don't really care about balanced combat encounters, but none of these are remotely OSR games.

What "balancing of encounters" tells me is that you want a game where combat is sport and possibly a game where combat is the hammer that most efficiently solves many of the PCs' problems. There is nothing wrong with that.There are rules for balanced encounters again in Fabula Ultima, but that game isn't as light as B/X and the author is pretty vocal in the book against pre-authored GM stories.

I'm not sure what game will scratch that specific itch for you. But I also don't think that it's the OSR community's obligation to design that game for you nor is it any fault or flaw of the OSR for not having done so. However, if you want that game but are unable to find it, then I recommend that you make it. This is what the initial movers of OSR did when they created retro-clones as well as those that followed who iterated with their own creative visions for OSR games.


I don't think that this provides a good, satisfying, much less good faith, explanation for why Bob World Builder and Kelsey Dionne genuinely like OSR. I get that you desire to paint the entirety of the OSR community with the same broad stroke negative meta-narrative of "rejecting modernity," but I think that it rudely does a huge disservice to the myriad reasons why people may enjoy playing OSR, none of which requires depicting them as backwards reactionaries who hate modern games. Moreover, there are plenty of mechanically dense older games out there.

My personal subjective take is that one reason why people are shifting to OSR games or even those with rules lighter than 5e D&D or PF1/2 - which is not many in the grand scheme of things when D&D 2014/2024 is GOD ALMIGHTY in the market - has less to do with rejecting modernity and more to do with adapting to the reality of modernity.

This is to say, I ain't got the time for crunchier rules heavy games like I used to and I have little chance in Hades of getting my partner to play them. I know a number of folks here and elsewhere who have made similar comments before. As I get older, my time for gaming grows shorter, and I can't do the APs anymore. I don't like dealing as much with crunchier rules systems. I don't like having to spend a lot of time prepping and balancing encounters. I want something that is easy for myself and others to jump into and get started with the gaming.

Since you talked about video games before, there is a similar phenomenon happening there too. A lot of smaller and shorter games made by AA and A studios are outperforming those made by AAA video game studios. There are a number of various explanations for this phenomenon, but one of them is just a matter of time commitment. Some of these smaller games or retro games require less of your time. It's not necessarily about rejecting modernity. It's about finding fun games that respect your limited time.


And yet it wasn't about Keep on the Borderlands, and it was Hickman who posted this. 🤷‍♂️


I think that this is fair, and this is also true, IME, with a number of video games. There were many games that I ignored, including initially OSR, because of its sales pitch. But as @Umbran has said many times before, tell me what is good about your game without saying anything bad about another game. Likewise, I see that @Whizbang Dustyboots has already addressed how it's more of an exaggerated meme than a reality.
Sorry, I don’t read Whizbang’s posts.
 

The weird bit is the myth is that back-in-the-day D&D was not played as the OSR plays now. The truth is it was. We played exactly the same way. The kids just rediscovered what us old folks were doing when we were kids and slapped a label on it. I know you don't care, but I was there, Gandalf. I was there, 3000 years ago...
I find those handy shortcuts to be part of the problem though. Regardless, I’m not a fan of the descriptor of the genre because again, it is used as a superiority kind of thing. If it is strictly based on the DM builds a dungeon, PCs adventure in that dungeon, and the PC itself is disposable - I.E. come prepared with multiple PCs because you’ll probably be losing 2 or 3, then that is very much not the kind of game I played with my friends even back in the 80s.
I started playing with Moldvay Basic in 1982, but never really played "skilled play"-style. The dungeons I designed were not very clever, and by 1985 our play was settling on a non-dungeon-oriented "vanilla narrativism". (Though I wouldn't have that label for it for another 20 years.)

My own biography doesn't stop me from seeing what the OSR is doing, and getting at, though.
 

The criticism of Monty Haul play, as I read it (I'm thinking especially of Gygax's DMG), is that it cheapens or undercuts the point of the game.

I remember, decades ago now, joining a group of friends for a lunchtime game of five hundred, only to discover that they permitted players to look at what tricks had been played! Which negates the whole point of following the play and keeping the count in your memory. It's not as if these people were doing anything wrong, but it did make it hard for me to take their play seriously.

And I think the criticism of Monty Haul is in the same neighbourhood.

This is why Gygax is happy for players to start with higher level PCs if they have already had the experience of playing to those levels, and so wouldn't be getting an in-game advantage that they haven't "earned" via their actual skilful play.

This gets into an older discussion that we’ve had in the past. I’m not a proponent of the idea of “skillful” play or talking about “cheapening” of the game because it frankly reeks of snobbish gatekeeping. I don’t see why one should care whether one had the experience of playing a PC to a high level versus someone creating a 10th level PC for the first time. It is a means of saying “your game is wrong, and mine is right” for a game that even the author dismissed his own rules he published for others within his own game.
 

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