Clockwerk66
First Post
Originally posted by borg285:
Edit Spreadsheet
This handbook can be edited on this google doc
This is a compilation of high damage builds, and overall combat superiority. We calculate average damage to an evenly group of monsters(see post 5) to get an estimate of how good it does overall in killing things. We keep track of these estimations in the above Google docs that anyone can edit and update. What metric will be used is under still construction.
Originally posted by borg285:
Level 1
Level 6
Originally posted by borg285:
Level 12
Level 17
Level 20
Originally posted by borg285:
Glossary
This section is to provide a key to the above builds, as to which types of cheese they employ. While technically true RAW; however YMMV.
No cheesy tags needed yet.
Advice and FAQ
Damage Per Round is the amount of Hit points you expect to do to a monster of a certain level on average.
Don't confuse this with average damage, like 2d10+5 = 16 damage average.
DPR takes into account the monster's armor class, or saving throw in the case of certain spells.
How do I calculate my chance of hitting?To Hit: 1 - .05 * (Monster AC - your to hit - 1)
How do I calculate DPR?If you only have a 50% chance of hitting, your DPR would be your chance of hitting times your average damage: .5 * 16 = 8 DPR
DPR: To Hit * average damage * 1.05
Note: If you crit on 19-20 multiply instead by 1.1, 18-20 multiply by 1.15
How do I calculate DPR if I have advantage?Calculate to hit as follows: 1-(1-Normal to hit)^2), Basically the chance of missing twice, everything but that. Slightly counterintuitive, but it gets the job done
Crit range: 20: Under construction
Crit range: 19-20: Under construction
Crt range: 18-20: Under construction
What is KPR and how do I calculate it?
KPR is Kills Per Round, or how much of a monster's HP do you expect to chew through each round. It is a way to normalize and factor out your level from your DPR. This way we can put builds side by side even though they are at different levels
KPR: Your DPR / Monster HP. See the formula we use for modeling a monster
What is Combat Index and how do I calculate it?
Combat index is a measure of how much faster you kill a foe than him killing you. This comes full circle. Now instead of calculating KPR of your attacks against a monster, you step in the shoes of the monster and calculate his KPR vs. you. This number encapsulates combat prowess and survivability. If your AC or HP is low, this number will be lower than one that spent resources on keeping them up.
CI: Your KPR / Monster KPR
How do I calculate these numbers for Area Attacks
This is a tough question. I have tried making conversion formulas that were easily gamed. I've tried simply adding a note in the "special" column so lurkers could see this expertise. This time I'm going with an agreed upon set of encounters that highlight both types of strikers (AoE and Single Target). My hopes are that having different numbers to showcase each build's capability in handling different kinds of battles help bring more well rounded builds to the top.
Currently there are 2 types of battles: one with 2 groups of 2 monsters, and another with a BBEG. Your caster will need to have enough spells / day to handle both groups.
Originally posted by borg285:
Standard Day
You will face long rest, Fantastic 4, short rest, BBEG
BBEG
AC:14+level/3
Dex save: 12 + level/5
HP: 10+6*level
Attack: Melee or ranged or Lasers(Level/3 / encounter) or Poison cloud(Level/3 / encouter)
Melee/Ranged: +4+level/3 vs. AC: 3 * level
Lasers: Dex. vs. +2+level/3: 3 * level
Poison Cloud: Con. vs. +2+level/3: 3 * level
Fantastic 4
Tweedle Dee
AC:12+level/3
Dex save: 10 + level/5
HP: 10+6*(level-2)
Melee or ranged: +level/3 + 2 vs. AC: 2 * level
Tweedle Dum (next to Dee)
Same as above
Archer 1 (60 ' away, shoots till you enter melee)
Same as above
Archer 2 (next to Archer 1)
Same as above
Example Candidate
Perrin (Rogue 1)
Dex 17
Con: 13
AC: 14
HP: 9
HD: 1d8
Saving throws: Dex, Int
Attack: +5 = +2(Prof) +3(Dex)
Damage(Rapier): 1d8+3
Damage(Short sword): 1d6
FF:
To Hit: 1-.05(13 - 5 - 1) = .65
Damage Per Round: (.65 * (1d8+3) + .65*(1d6))*1.05 = 7.51
KPR: 7.51(DPR)/4(HP) =
To Be Hit: 1-.05(14 - 2 - 1) = .45
FF DPR: (.45*(3))*1.05 = 1.4175
Combat sequence:
R1: I kill Dee, Dum atttack(1), Archers atttack(2)
R2: I kill dum and move 30, Archers atttack(2)
R3: I move 30 and kill Archer 1, Archer 2 hits(1)
R4: I kill A2.
HP: 9 - (1+2+2+1)* 1.4175 = .5
Short rest: .5+4.5 = 5
BBEG:
To Hit: 1-.05*(15 - 5 - 1) = .55
DPR: .55* (1d8+3) + .65*(1d6))*1.05 = 6.72
KPR: 6.72/16 = 0.42 KPR
To Be Hit: 1-.05*(14-3-1) = 0.5
BBEG DPR: (.5*3)*1.05 = 1.575
BBEG KPR: 1.575 / 9 (my max HP) = 0.175
// Here I add in combat index
Combat Index = 0.42 / 0.175 = 2.4 CI <- Meaning I kill him 2.4 times as fast as he kills me
Duration: 3 rounds
HP: 5(current HP) - 3*1.575 = 0.275
Summary:
Combat Duration: 7 rounds
CI vs. FF: Under construction
CI vs. BBEG: 2.4
Originally posted by mellored:
AC shouldn't scale nearly that fast. Bounded accuracy and all means high level creatures will still have low AC.
More like you have with Dex, AC = 13 + 1/6 level. Maybe +1/5. Hard to say.
HP looks spot on.
Right now, as far as DPR goes (no long/short rest abilities).
A 2-weapon rogue wins on DPR at low levels.
That's taken over by a 2-handed fighter DPR at level 5, who holds the title from there on out.
Originally posted by mellored:
8 AC still seems really low. I'm going with 13 AC.
Anyways...
Level 1 halfing rogue dual wielding short swords. Assuming an ally.
+3 Dex +2 Prof = +5 vs 13 AC. = .6
+Lucky =
0.63 chance to hit.
0.0525 chance to crit.
1d6+3 * .63 = 4.095
1d6 * .63 = 2.205
0.8631 chance for 1d6 sneak attack = 3.02085
0.0525 chance to crit * 2d6 = 0.3675
= 9.68835 DPR.
At level 5 with a Dex bump (and assuming +1 AC )
7.5 * .63 = 4.725
+2.205 second attack
0.8631 chance for 3d6 sneak attack = 9.06255
+0.0525 chance to crit for 4d6 = 0.735
= 12.00255 DPR.
Originally posted by mellored:
Level 1 Mnt Dwarf (or human), with a maul and great weapon style.
2d6 with GWF = 7.8
7.8+3 damage * .6 = 6.48
7.8 * .1 crit = 0.39
DPR = 6.87
At level 5 with a Str bump (and assuming AC went up by 1).
11.8 * .6 = 7.08
+ .0.78 crit
7.86 * 2
= 15.72 DPR
Originally posted by mellored:
Level 1 dual wielding halfing fighter. Dual weapon style.
0.63 chance to hit.
0.0525 chance to crit.
1d6+3 * .63 = 4.095
0.0525 chance to crit * 1d6 = 0.18375
= 4.27875 *2
DPR = 8.5575
At level 5, with a Dex bump and assuming AC went up by 1.
1d6+4 * .63 = 4.725
+ 0.3675
= 4.90875 * 3
DPR = 15.2775
Originally posted by borg285:
Here's a relevent snippet from today's blog post. Hopefully we can get a better model of our standard monster.The Adventuring Day: As a rule of thumb, the game assumes that characters of a particular level can defeat a total number of creatures with an XP value equal to two hard encounters before needing to take a long rest.
Originally posted by Lawolf:
So I have been running calculations at level 5 and at level 11 HERE(x).
Tese are my assumptions:
1) Combat will typically be 4 encounters on average. (2 hard, 3 challenging, 6 moderate, or some combination of those).
2) Combat will typicall last 4 rounds. In the playtest, combat was usually over within 2 or 3 rounds, but final monster HP have been increased.
3) No magic items or feats (yet). We don't have a full list of them so it seems unfair to use them in the analysis. Furthermore, classes are supposedly balanced with or without feats. Magic items are entirely optional so classes should eb balanced without magic items as well.
4) Players get a single short rest somewhere during the day between encounters.
5) Damage per round is nice, but I prefer to measure damage over the course of the whole day (16 rounds of combat) to better account for action surge or other such abilities.
The typical level 5 monster has AC 15 and +1 Dex.
The typical level 11 monster has AC 17 and +3 Dex.
These numbers are taken from the playtest monsters modified by what we have seen with the previewed monsters.
Originally posted by mellored:
Action surge favors 2-handers pretty heavily, since you do not get an extra bonus action.
Rogues cunning action doesn't help. Best use is still a 1d6 off-hand attacks then 1d8 attack with advantage. Though, they scale more smoothly, so they can be expected to be behind at level 5 when fighter's and wizards spike.
Originally posted by Daganev:
At Level 20, a TWF fighter does less than half the damage of a Heavy weapon fighter.
Originally posted by mellored:
And it's likely that TWF and Archery would be used together with Dex, which gives you a better saving throw and initive then Str.
There's a few redeming qualities.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
But not me ...
Originally posted by Karnos:
I agree two-weapon fighting looks weak currently, but the new stuff in PHB could make it more useful at high levels.
Originally posted by Mephi1234:
Originally posted by Sifaka:
Maul (2d6) with GWF should be 8.333 (reroll 1,2 on each d6)
1st Level:
# of Attacks 1
Hit +5
Dmg +3
AC 13
Crit on 20
Hit % (no crit) = 60%
Crit % = 5%
(8.333+3)*.60 = 6.780
(8.333+8.333+3)*.05 = .983
DPR = 7.763
5th Level:
# of Attacks 2
Hit +7
Dmg +4
AC 14
Crit on 19
Hit % (no crit) = 60%
Crit % = 10%
(8.333+4)*.60 = 7.340
(8.333+8.333+4)*.10 = 2.067
DPA = 9.407
DPR = 18.814
I am not a 100% sure that I rounded all of the numbers properly, but I think these DPR calculations are closer.
Edit: fixed hit rate and updated math
Originally posted by Noctaem:
Yahoo now this is my kind of thread! Well done!
Originally posted by abanathie:
These are my numbers for a duelist fighter, a halfling duelist fighter, a great weapon fighter and a dual weapon rogue. I assume a basic target of a 15 AC in all cases. Each character starts with a +3 attribute bump at first level, and each character attempts to maximize the primary attack attribute in the quickest manner possible. For the duelist builds I used a 1d8 weapon. The great weapon fighter used a 2d6 weapon, and the dual wielding rogue used a pair of 1d6 weapons.
Here are the numbers:
Level Duelist Halfling GWF 2W Rogue
1 5.45 5.72 6.65 8.90
2 5.45 5.72 6.65 8.90
3 5.68 5.98 7.07 11.94
4 6.75 7.11 8.23 13.32
5 14.55 15.33 17.70 17.42
6 17.00 17.91 20.33 17.42
7 17.00 17.91 20.33 20.73
8 17.00 17.91 20.33 22.40
9 18.15 19.12 21.67 26.85
10 18.15 19.12 21.67 26.85
11 27.23 28.67 32.50 30.35
12 27.23 28.67 32.50 30.35
13 28.95 30.48 34.50 34.94
14 28.95 30.48 34.50 34.94
15 29.63 31.28 35.75 38.51
16 29.63 31.28 35.75 38.51
17 31.35 33.09 37.75 43.15
18 31.35 33.09 37.75 43.15
19 31.35 33.09 37.75 46.78
20 41.80 44.12 50.33 46.78
EDIT: My original spreadsheet referenced an incorrect field for the halfling fighter. Here are the corrected numbers for the halfling:
Level Update
1 5.72
2 5.72
3 5.96
4 7.09
5 15.28
6 17.85
7 17.85
8 17.85
9 19.06
10 19.06
11 28.59
12 28.59
13 30.40
14 30.40
15 31.11
16 31.11
17 32.92
18 32.92
19 32.92
20 43.89
Not a huge difference...
Originally posted by Lawolf:
Originally posted by abanathie:
Originally posted by mellored:
GWF is the winner. Though, IMO, not far enough ahead to give up a shield.
Rogue keeps up pretty nicely.
Originally posted by abanathie:
Level 1W rogue
1 6.45
2 6.45
3 8.55
4 9.88
5 13.10
6 13.10
7 15.55
8 17.38
9 21.35
10 21.35
11 24.15
12 24.15
13 28.65
14 28.65
15 31.63
16 31.63
17 36.65
18 36.65
19 39.80
20 39.80
EDIT: These calculations are done using Excel; so, I can change a single field to get AC18, 13, 10 or whatever. If you want to see those numbers, you can ask for those numbers. I won't release them if you want to make statements about what my assumptions should be though. As another note, I will only be able to parse and post numbers during the weekend. I work out of town during the week. Parsing and posting numbers during the weekdays will be difficult for me.
EDIT: This is the base fighter using a 1d8 weapon without the duelist fighting style as a reference. So, if you take protection or some other fighting style, here are the base numbers for the champion fighter:
Level Fighter
1 4.35
2 4.35
3 4.58
4 5.55
5 11.95
6 14.20
7 14.20
8 14.20
9 15.15
10 15.15
11 22.73
12 22.73
13 24.15
14 24.15
15 24.83
16 24.83
17 26.25
18 26.25
19 26.25
20 35.00
Originally posted by borg285:
Abanathie and everyone, Please use this sub-sheet here to calculate a base striker. This is a sheet in the main Google doc spreadsheet we use to track all candidates. This way we can all fix and update him to be the best base striker.
This way we can easily update the foe's AC function when we have harder numbers instead of the function I came with out of by butt.
Way to go everyone.
Originally posted by borg285:
An interesting finding, To maintain a fighter having a 65% chance of hitting, the AC model would need to be updated to be 10+level/2, which is similar to growth rate of 4e and tops out at 20 AC by level 20.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by abanathie:
Originally posted by borg285:
Originally posted by abanathie:
I doesn't support the GWF or halfling features. I'll add those at a later date.
EDIT: Added the GWF as a damage reroll mechanic in the spreadsheet. Just change the orange/red reroll field to two to simulate a GWF. Zero is the default which automatically recalculates no rerolls. Put a zero in the field to disable GWF...
EDIT: Added the halfling reroll trait to the worksheet. Just change the orange/red reroll field under to hit rerolls to simulate the halfling trait. Zero is the default; one would simulate the trait.
EDIT: I'll also ask that you, the general user, copy the Baseline Fighter (Abanathie) tab instead of altering it. That way there's a unblemished copy for other users. It will also allow me to easily update it with other features. For example, I want to add an option to add sneak attack damage to the spreadsheet. I, also, plan on renaming the sheet, Baseline character. In addition, you can, if you're unsure about the spreadsheet, ask for a specific build. If I have time, I'll attempt to figure it out for you.
Originally posted by mellored:
The (ranged) advanatage rogue should only be 3 or so points below a TWF rogue across all levels.
Originally posted by Squad:
For example, 1st level against AC 15 (ability +3, proficiency +2) with longbow and advantage.
7.5 damage * 55% hit base + advantage = 5.98 dpr
Added sneak attack damage
3.5 damage * 55% hit base + advantage = 2.79 dpr
Critical hit
8 damage * 5% hit base + advantage = 0.78 dpr
Total = 9.55 dpr
2-weapon rogue against AC 15 as listed in a previous post was 8.90 dpr.
Originally posted by mightyTeuton:
I didn't notice anyone accounting for magic weapon bonuses in the comparison of TWF to GWF. It's unlikely that a level 20 adventurer is not wielding a magic weapon, and historically great weapons and light weapons have the same magic bonus progression, capping out at +5. So a TWF could potentially hit with 5 more damage per round compared to a GWF, and the bonus to-hit would also improve the TWF rogue's chance to deal sneak attack damage.
This may belong in another thread, but other arguments that boost TWF include overdamage being useless (dead is dead!) and the ability to break your movement up between attacks (everyone's a dirvish, now!).
Originally posted by mellored:
6.5 damage * 55% hit base = 3.575
3.5 damage * 55% hit base = 1.925
= 5.5 dpr.
1-(.45 * .45) = 0.7975 * 7.5
= 5.98125 dpr
Yea... my mistake. I was thinking 1d8+Dex (2 chances) vs 2d6+Dex (2 chances).
But it's not quite that simple. Advantage gives you 2 chances to land your +Dex mod, TWF does not.
Advantage > TWF.
Though still, the difference is pretty minimal. And you might fail to hide.
Originally posted by Squad:
Actually, I'm quite happy that attacking once with advantage is so close to 2-weapon fighting, since that means you can switch tactics depending on the situation and maintain a consistent dpr.
Originally posted by Sifaka:
Sneak Attack = 3.5*.50 = 1.75
Critical hit = (4.5+4.5+3.5+3.5+3)*.05 = .95
Total = 6.45
Edit: hit rate was off - expanded entry to show math.
Double Nija Edit: fixed crit damage to include sneak
Originally posted by mellored:
2 attacks with advantage > 1 attack with advantage > 2 attacks without advantage > 1 attack without advantage > no sneak attack.
Originally posted by Sifaka:
Does:
(21 - 2hitnumber)/20 + (21-2hitnumber)/20*.05
Look right?
So for AC 15 at 1st level we get:
(21-10)/20+(21-10)/20*.05 = .5775 (-.05 if we want to total crits separately)
If this is true a 1st level halfing with a light crossbow would have a dpr of:
X-Bow = (4.5+3)*.5275 = 3.95625
Sneak Attack = 3.5*.5275 = 1.84625
Critical hit = (4.5+4.5 +3.5+3.5+3)*.05 = .95
Total = 6.7525
Originally posted by Sifaka:
And it follows 2nd level halfling with advantage using a light crossbow at level 2 (using cunning action and ducking behind the tall fellow every turn?):
Hit Rate would be 1-(1-.5275)*(1-.5275) = .77674375
X-Bow = (4.5+3)* .77674375 = 5.825578125
Sneak Attack = 3.5*..77674375= 2.718603125
Critical hit = (4.5+4.5 +3.5+3.5+3)*.05 = .95
Total = 9.49418125
Using Advantage every turn seems far fetched... but hey it might be possible?
Originally posted by Squad:
Originally posted by mellored:
Well...
You have a 5% chance of getting a reroll.
(21-2hit)/20 * 1.05
Sanity checks.
Hit on a 1
95% * 1.05 = 99.75%
(1/400 chance to roll a 1 and 1 = 00.25%,
+4.75)
Hit on a 20
5% * 1.05 = 5.25%
(+0.25)
Hit on an 11
50% * 1.05 = 52.5%
(+2.5)
Yes?
Originally posted by borg285:
If anyone is interested, Here's a sheet where we can colaborate on calculating the DPR for the rogue. I don't know if we want to fix the race, or fix the ranged/melee choice. I vote for the choice that results in the greatest DPR over the most levels. It's not too hard to have a lower(ranged) and upper(melee) section. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the halfling seems the most optimal choice here.
5e DPR King Candidates
View BuildsEdit Spreadsheet
This handbook can be edited on this google doc
This is a compilation of high damage builds, and overall combat superiority. We calculate average damage to an evenly group of monsters(see post 5) to get an estimate of how good it does overall in killing things. We keep track of these estimations in the above Google docs that anyone can edit and update. What metric will be used is under still construction.
Originally posted by borg285:
Level 1
| DPR | Special | Name | Link | Author |
| 9.48 | Basic GWF fighter | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...19T075-6cwkphdPJQe1d8gTVbQ/edit#gid=872304908 | Abanathie | |
| 6.65 | Barbarian (Berserker), greataxe | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis | |
| 6.35 | Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), greatsword | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| DPR | Special | Name | Link | Author |
| 23.87 | Basic GWF fighter | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9T075-6cwkphdPJQe1d8gTVbQ/edit#gid=872304908. | Abanathie | |
| 22.26 | 33.39 (w/ frenzy) | Barbarian (Berserker), greataxe | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| 31.40 | Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), greatsword | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
Originally posted by borg285:
Level 12
| DPR | Special | Name | Link | Author |
| 40.50 | Basic GWF fighter | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...19T075-6cwkphdPJQe1d8gTVbQ/edit#gid=872304908 | Abanathie | |
| 60.06 | 50.85 (w/ frenzy) | Barbarian (Berserker), greataxe | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| 52.89 | Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), greatsword | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| DPR | Special | Name | Link | Author |
| 41.75 | Basic GWF fighter | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...19T075-6cwkphdPJQe1d8gTVbQ/edit#gid=872304908 | Abanathie | |
| 64.73 | 81.28 (w/ frenzy) | Barbarian (Berserker), greataxe | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| 83.67 | Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), greatsword | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| DPR | Special | Name | Link | Author |
| 55.67 | Basic GWF fighter | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...19T075-6cwkphdPJQe1d8gTVbQ/edit#gid=872304908 | Abanathie | |
| 73.78 | 92.64 (w/ frenzy) | Barbarian (Berserker), greataxe | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
| 76.05 | Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), greatsword | http://community.wizards.com/comment/51043256#comment-51043256(x) | GladiusLegis |
Originally posted by borg285:
Glossary
This section is to provide a key to the above builds, as to which types of cheese they employ. While technically true RAW; however YMMV.
No cheesy tags needed yet.
Advice and FAQ
What is DPR and how do I calculate it?
Damage Per Round is the amount of Hit points you expect to do to a monster of a certain level on average.
Don't confuse this with average damage, like 2d10+5 = 16 damage average.
DPR takes into account the monster's armor class, or saving throw in the case of certain spells.
How do I calculate my chance of hitting?To Hit: 1 - .05 * (Monster AC - your to hit - 1)
How do I calculate DPR?If you only have a 50% chance of hitting, your DPR would be your chance of hitting times your average damage: .5 * 16 = 8 DPR
DPR: To Hit * average damage * 1.05
Note: If you crit on 19-20 multiply instead by 1.1, 18-20 multiply by 1.15
How do I calculate DPR if I have advantage?Calculate to hit as follows: 1-(1-Normal to hit)^2), Basically the chance of missing twice, everything but that. Slightly counterintuitive, but it gets the job done
Crit range: 20: Under construction
Crit range: 19-20: Under construction
Crt range: 18-20: Under construction
What is KPR and how do I calculate it?
KPR is Kills Per Round, or how much of a monster's HP do you expect to chew through each round. It is a way to normalize and factor out your level from your DPR. This way we can put builds side by side even though they are at different levels
KPR: Your DPR / Monster HP. See the formula we use for modeling a monster
What is Combat Index and how do I calculate it?
Combat index is a measure of how much faster you kill a foe than him killing you. This comes full circle. Now instead of calculating KPR of your attacks against a monster, you step in the shoes of the monster and calculate his KPR vs. you. This number encapsulates combat prowess and survivability. If your AC or HP is low, this number will be lower than one that spent resources on keeping them up.
CI: Your KPR / Monster KPR
How do I calculate these numbers for Area Attacks
This is a tough question. I have tried making conversion formulas that were easily gamed. I've tried simply adding a note in the "special" column so lurkers could see this expertise. This time I'm going with an agreed upon set of encounters that highlight both types of strikers (AoE and Single Target). My hopes are that having different numbers to showcase each build's capability in handling different kinds of battles help bring more well rounded builds to the top.
Currently there are 2 types of battles: one with 2 groups of 2 monsters, and another with a BBEG. Your caster will need to have enough spells / day to handle both groups.
Originally posted by borg285:
Standard Day
You will face long rest, Fantastic 4, short rest, BBEG
BBEG
AC:14+level/3
Dex save: 12 + level/5
HP: 10+6*level
Attack: Melee or ranged or Lasers(Level/3 / encounter) or Poison cloud(Level/3 / encouter)
Melee/Ranged: +4+level/3 vs. AC: 3 * level
Lasers: Dex. vs. +2+level/3: 3 * level
Poison Cloud: Con. vs. +2+level/3: 3 * level
Fantastic 4
Tweedle Dee
AC:12+level/3
Dex save: 10 + level/5
HP: 10+6*(level-2)
Melee or ranged: +level/3 + 2 vs. AC: 2 * level
Tweedle Dum (next to Dee)
Same as above
Archer 1 (60 ' away, shoots till you enter melee)
Same as above
Archer 2 (next to Archer 1)
Same as above
Example Candidate
Perrin (Rogue 1)
Dex 17
Con: 13
AC: 14
HP: 9
HD: 1d8
Saving throws: Dex, Int
Attack: +5 = +2(Prof) +3(Dex)
Damage(Rapier): 1d8+3
Damage(Short sword): 1d6
FF:
To Hit: 1-.05(13 - 5 - 1) = .65
Damage Per Round: (.65 * (1d8+3) + .65*(1d6))*1.05 = 7.51
KPR: 7.51(DPR)/4(HP) =
To Be Hit: 1-.05(14 - 2 - 1) = .45
FF DPR: (.45*(3))*1.05 = 1.4175
Combat sequence:
R1: I kill Dee, Dum atttack(1), Archers atttack(2)
R2: I kill dum and move 30, Archers atttack(2)
R3: I move 30 and kill Archer 1, Archer 2 hits(1)
R4: I kill A2.
HP: 9 - (1+2+2+1)* 1.4175 = .5
Short rest: .5+4.5 = 5
BBEG:
To Hit: 1-.05*(15 - 5 - 1) = .55
DPR: .55* (1d8+3) + .65*(1d6))*1.05 = 6.72
KPR: 6.72/16 = 0.42 KPR
To Be Hit: 1-.05*(14-3-1) = 0.5
BBEG DPR: (.5*3)*1.05 = 1.575
BBEG KPR: 1.575 / 9 (my max HP) = 0.175
// Here I add in combat index
Combat Index = 0.42 / 0.175 = 2.4 CI <- Meaning I kill him 2.4 times as fast as he kills me
Duration: 3 rounds
HP: 5(current HP) - 3*1.575 = 0.275
Summary:
Combat Duration: 7 rounds
CI vs. FF: Under construction
CI vs. BBEG: 2.4
Originally posted by mellored:
AC shouldn't scale nearly that fast. Bounded accuracy and all means high level creatures will still have low AC.
More like you have with Dex, AC = 13 + 1/6 level. Maybe +1/5. Hard to say.
HP looks spot on.
Right now, as far as DPR goes (no long/short rest abilities).
A 2-weapon rogue wins on DPR at low levels.
That's taken over by a 2-handed fighter DPR at level 5, who holds the title from there on out.
Originally posted by mellored:
8 AC still seems really low. I'm going with 13 AC.
Anyways...
Level 1 halfing rogue dual wielding short swords. Assuming an ally.
+3 Dex +2 Prof = +5 vs 13 AC. = .6
+Lucky =
0.63 chance to hit.
0.0525 chance to crit.
1d6+3 * .63 = 4.095
1d6 * .63 = 2.205
0.8631 chance for 1d6 sneak attack = 3.02085
0.0525 chance to crit * 2d6 = 0.3675
= 9.68835 DPR.
At level 5 with a Dex bump (and assuming +1 AC )
7.5 * .63 = 4.725
+2.205 second attack
0.8631 chance for 3d6 sneak attack = 9.06255
+0.0525 chance to crit for 4d6 = 0.735
= 12.00255 DPR.
Originally posted by mellored:
Level 1 Mnt Dwarf (or human), with a maul and great weapon style.
2d6 with GWF = 7.8
7.8+3 damage * .6 = 6.48
7.8 * .1 crit = 0.39
DPR = 6.87
At level 5 with a Str bump (and assuming AC went up by 1).
11.8 * .6 = 7.08
+ .0.78 crit
7.86 * 2
= 15.72 DPR
Originally posted by mellored:
Level 1 dual wielding halfing fighter. Dual weapon style.
0.63 chance to hit.
0.0525 chance to crit.
1d6+3 * .63 = 4.095
0.0525 chance to crit * 1d6 = 0.18375
= 4.27875 *2
DPR = 8.5575
At level 5, with a Dex bump and assuming AC went up by 1.
1d6+4 * .63 = 4.725
+ 0.3675
= 4.90875 * 3
DPR = 15.2775
Originally posted by borg285:
Here's a relevent snippet from today's blog post. Hopefully we can get a better model of our standard monster.The Adventuring Day: As a rule of thumb, the game assumes that characters of a particular level can defeat a total number of creatures with an XP value equal to two hard encounters before needing to take a long rest.
Originally posted by Lawolf:
So I have been running calculations at level 5 and at level 11 HERE(x).
Tese are my assumptions:
1) Combat will typically be 4 encounters on average. (2 hard, 3 challenging, 6 moderate, or some combination of those).
2) Combat will typicall last 4 rounds. In the playtest, combat was usually over within 2 or 3 rounds, but final monster HP have been increased.
3) No magic items or feats (yet). We don't have a full list of them so it seems unfair to use them in the analysis. Furthermore, classes are supposedly balanced with or without feats. Magic items are entirely optional so classes should eb balanced without magic items as well.
4) Players get a single short rest somewhere during the day between encounters.
5) Damage per round is nice, but I prefer to measure damage over the course of the whole day (16 rounds of combat) to better account for action surge or other such abilities.
The typical level 5 monster has AC 15 and +1 Dex.
The typical level 11 monster has AC 17 and +3 Dex.
These numbers are taken from the playtest monsters modified by what we have seen with the previewed monsters.
Originally posted by mellored:
Action surge favors 2-handers pretty heavily, since you do not get an extra bonus action.
Rogues cunning action doesn't help. Best use is still a 1d6 off-hand attacks then 1d8 attack with advantage. Though, they scale more smoothly, so they can be expected to be behind at level 5 when fighter's and wizards spike.
Originally posted by Daganev:
At Level 20, a TWF fighter does less than half the damage of a Heavy weapon fighter.
Originally posted by mellored:
Killing 5 kobolds per round is still better then killing 4.TWF can also improve with other damage bonuses. Like the playtest bard song.Daganev wrote:At Level 20, a TWF fighter does less than half the damage of a Heavy weapon fighter.
And it's likely that TWF and Archery would be used together with Dex, which gives you a better saving throw and initive then Str.
There's a few redeming qualities.
Originally posted by awaken_D_M_golem:
This being the interwebs, you know someone will dispute such K-hating propaganda (like Pun-pun).
But not me ...
Originally posted by Karnos:
Until they add feats geared towards two-weapon fighting, or a feat that adds some flat damage bonus per attack.Daganev wrote:At Level 20, a TWF fighter does less than half the damage of a Heavy weapon fighter.
I agree two-weapon fighting looks weak currently, but the new stuff in PHB could make it more useful at high levels.
Originally posted by Mephi1234:
Or a tempest TWF subclass comes about. Subclass and feats are the two things we don't have right now to make a wide variety of styles really click. As things stand, right now, the fighter is best off with sword/board or just greatsword.Karnos wrote:
Until they add feats geared towards two-weapon fighting, or a feat that adds some flat damage bonus per attack.Daganev wrote:At Level 20, a TWF fighter does less than half the damage of a Heavy weapon fighter.
I agree two-weapon fighting looks weak currently, but the new stuff in PHB could make it more useful at high levels.
Originally posted by Sifaka:
Correcting for GWF Style:
Maul (2d6) with GWF should be 8.333 (reroll 1,2 on each d6)
1st Level:
# of Attacks 1
Hit +5
Dmg +3
AC 13
Crit on 20
Hit % (no crit) = 60%
Crit % = 5%
(8.333+3)*.60 = 6.780
(8.333+8.333+3)*.05 = .983
DPR = 7.763
5th Level:
# of Attacks 2
Hit +7
Dmg +4
AC 14
Crit on 19
Hit % (no crit) = 60%
Crit % = 10%
(8.333+4)*.60 = 7.340
(8.333+8.333+4)*.10 = 2.067
DPA = 9.407
DPR = 18.814
I am not a 100% sure that I rounded all of the numbers properly, but I think these DPR calculations are closer.
Edit: fixed hit rate and updated math
Originally posted by Noctaem:
Yahoo now this is my kind of thread! Well done!
Originally posted by abanathie:
These are my numbers for a duelist fighter, a halfling duelist fighter, a great weapon fighter and a dual weapon rogue. I assume a basic target of a 15 AC in all cases. Each character starts with a +3 attribute bump at first level, and each character attempts to maximize the primary attack attribute in the quickest manner possible. For the duelist builds I used a 1d8 weapon. The great weapon fighter used a 2d6 weapon, and the dual wielding rogue used a pair of 1d6 weapons.
Here are the numbers:
Level Duelist Halfling GWF 2W Rogue
1 5.45 5.72 6.65 8.90
2 5.45 5.72 6.65 8.90
3 5.68 5.98 7.07 11.94
4 6.75 7.11 8.23 13.32
5 14.55 15.33 17.70 17.42
6 17.00 17.91 20.33 17.42
7 17.00 17.91 20.33 20.73
8 17.00 17.91 20.33 22.40
9 18.15 19.12 21.67 26.85
10 18.15 19.12 21.67 26.85
11 27.23 28.67 32.50 30.35
12 27.23 28.67 32.50 30.35
13 28.95 30.48 34.50 34.94
14 28.95 30.48 34.50 34.94
15 29.63 31.28 35.75 38.51
16 29.63 31.28 35.75 38.51
17 31.35 33.09 37.75 43.15
18 31.35 33.09 37.75 43.15
19 31.35 33.09 37.75 46.78
20 41.80 44.12 50.33 46.78
EDIT: My original spreadsheet referenced an incorrect field for the halfling fighter. Here are the corrected numbers for the halfling:
Level Update
1 5.72
2 5.72
3 5.96
4 7.09
5 15.28
6 17.85
7 17.85
8 17.85
9 19.06
10 19.06
11 28.59
12 28.59
13 30.40
14 30.40
15 31.11
16 31.11
17 32.92
18 32.92
19 32.92
20 43.89
Not a huge difference...
Originally posted by Lawolf:
I wouldn't assume a 15 AC. We already have CR 1/2 monsters with an 18 AC. I think it is much more likely to assume a 65% hit chance across all levels based on the monsters we have seen.
Originally posted by abanathie:
It's a point of reference. You can overthink it if you want. I used AC 15 to see differences between the four concepts.
Originally posted by mellored:
It doesn't matter too much since they are all attacking the same thing..
GWF is the winner. Though, IMO, not far enough ahead to give up a shield.
Rogue keeps up pretty nicely.
Originally posted by abanathie:
The base, non-two weapon rogue has a harder time keeping up; however, it can employ hit and run tactics to stay out of combat. It is a single target, per round, type of combatant; so, it also loses versatility of mowing down minions in that particular situation. Here are the numbers, using the same assumptions as before for a single weapon rogue. This rogue assumes a 1d8 weapon.
Level 1W rogue
1 6.45
2 6.45
3 8.55
4 9.88
5 13.10
6 13.10
7 15.55
8 17.38
9 21.35
10 21.35
11 24.15
12 24.15
13 28.65
14 28.65
15 31.63
16 31.63
17 36.65
18 36.65
19 39.80
20 39.80
EDIT: These calculations are done using Excel; so, I can change a single field to get AC18, 13, 10 or whatever. If you want to see those numbers, you can ask for those numbers. I won't release them if you want to make statements about what my assumptions should be though. As another note, I will only be able to parse and post numbers during the weekend. I work out of town during the week. Parsing and posting numbers during the weekdays will be difficult for me.
EDIT: This is the base fighter using a 1d8 weapon without the duelist fighting style as a reference. So, if you take protection or some other fighting style, here are the base numbers for the champion fighter:
Level Fighter
1 4.35
2 4.35
3 4.58
4 5.55
5 11.95
6 14.20
7 14.20
8 14.20
9 15.15
10 15.15
11 22.73
12 22.73
13 24.15
14 24.15
15 24.83
16 24.83
17 26.25
18 26.25
19 26.25
20 35.00
Originally posted by borg285:
Abanathie and everyone, Please use this sub-sheet here to calculate a base striker. This is a sheet in the main Google doc spreadsheet we use to track all candidates. This way we can all fix and update him to be the best base striker.
This way we can easily update the foe's AC function when we have harder numbers instead of the function I came with out of by butt.
Way to go everyone.
Originally posted by borg285:
An interesting finding, To maintain a fighter having a 65% chance of hitting, the AC model would need to be updated to be 10+level/2, which is similar to growth rate of 4e and tops out at 20 AC by level 20.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by abanathie:
The problem I have with your worksheet is that each build has some unique features. For example, the GWF has reroll chances on a one and two, and the halfling has a reroll on any natural one on an attack. I created a spreadsheet to automatically calculates the impact on the DPR, but you're spreadsheet makes integrating it more difficult. I can post my worksheets if you want, and you can put the work to integrate it your worksheets. I've already put the footwork into the calculations; I'm not inclined to put more footwork in to make it work in two different locations...
Originally posted by borg285:
Sure. Feel free to delete all the formulas in my worksheet. Honestly. Regarding the different builds just pick the one that has the highest DPR for the most levels. The advantage of having a public google doc is that, at least for these buids that have so few options, we can all agree on the DPR at different levels for these different builds. My intent is to have a baseline DPR from which to gauge future builds that use the PHB.
Originally posted by abanathie:
I added a baseline fighter tab to your spreadsheet; it's just a baseline. In other words, it should serve as your minimum benchmark. It does have some customizable features. For example, you can change the "to hit bonus" to +2 to similulate an archery fighting style and view the impact on DPR. Another option is to change the "to damage bonus" to +2 to simulate the duelist fighting style and view the impact that has on DPR.
I doesn't support the GWF or halfling features. I'll add those at a later date.
EDIT: Added the GWF as a damage reroll mechanic in the spreadsheet. Just change the orange/red reroll field to two to simulate a GWF. Zero is the default which automatically recalculates no rerolls. Put a zero in the field to disable GWF...
EDIT: Added the halfling reroll trait to the worksheet. Just change the orange/red reroll field under to hit rerolls to simulate the halfling trait. Zero is the default; one would simulate the trait.
EDIT: I'll also ask that you, the general user, copy the Baseline Fighter (Abanathie) tab instead of altering it. That way there's a unblemished copy for other users. It will also allow me to easily update it with other features. For example, I want to add an option to add sneak attack damage to the spreadsheet. I, also, plan on renaming the sheet, Baseline character. In addition, you can, if you're unsure about the spreadsheet, ask for a specific build. If I have time, I'll attempt to figure it out for you.
Originally posted by mellored:
The rogue would have 2-weapon, or advantage from stealth with a d8.If you don't hide or TWF, then presumably you would of made an even better use of your bonus action. Like dropping some caltrops to slow down an advance giving you an extra round to attack.
The (ranged) advanatage rogue should only be 3 or so points below a TWF rogue across all levels.
Originally posted by Squad:
I tried to do the math for the ranged advantage rogue (longbow), and my numbers ended up higher than the TWF. So where did I go wrong with the math?
For example, 1st level against AC 15 (ability +3, proficiency +2) with longbow and advantage.
7.5 damage * 55% hit base + advantage = 5.98 dpr
Added sneak attack damage
3.5 damage * 55% hit base + advantage = 2.79 dpr
Critical hit
8 damage * 5% hit base + advantage = 0.78 dpr
Total = 9.55 dpr
2-weapon rogue against AC 15 as listed in a previous post was 8.90 dpr.
Originally posted by mightyTeuton:
I didn't notice anyone accounting for magic weapon bonuses in the comparison of TWF to GWF. It's unlikely that a level 20 adventurer is not wielding a magic weapon, and historically great weapons and light weapons have the same magic bonus progression, capping out at +5. So a TWF could potentially hit with 5 more damage per round compared to a GWF, and the bonus to-hit would also improve the TWF rogue's chance to deal sneak attack damage.
This may belong in another thread, but other arguments that boost TWF include overdamage being useless (dead is dead!) and the ability to break your movement up between attacks (everyone's a dirvish, now!).
Originally posted by mellored:
Hmm...
6.5 damage * 55% hit base = 3.575
3.5 damage * 55% hit base = 1.925
= 5.5 dpr.
1-(.45 * .45) = 0.7975 * 7.5
= 5.98125 dpr
Yea... my mistake. I was thinking 1d8+Dex (2 chances) vs 2d6+Dex (2 chances).
But it's not quite that simple. Advantage gives you 2 chances to land your +Dex mod, TWF does not.
Advantage > TWF.
Though still, the difference is pretty minimal. And you might fail to hide.
Originally posted by Squad:
Yeah, in addition to the potential problem of hiding, you may also be in a situaiton where you want to be able to attack multiple low-hp targets.
Actually, I'm quite happy that attacking once with advantage is so close to 2-weapon fighting, since that means you can switch tactics depending on the situation and maintain a consistent dpr.
Originally posted by Sifaka:
Sneak attack does not require advantage as long as someone is in 5 feet of the target, so I think for the purposes of this model we are not including it.Bow = (4.5+3)*.50 = 3.75
Sneak Attack = 3.5*.50 = 1.75
Critical hit = (4.5+4.5+3.5+3.5+3)*.05 = .95
Total = 6.45
Edit: hit rate was off - expanded entry to show math.
Double Nija Edit: fixed crit damage to include sneak
Originally posted by mellored:
That's true too.
2 attacks with advantage > 1 attack with advantage > 2 attacks without advantage > 1 attack without advantage > no sneak attack.
Originally posted by Sifaka:
The rogue gets complicated. I am not a 100% sure how to calculate the hit rate on a halfling.
Does:
(21 - 2hitnumber)/20 + (21-2hitnumber)/20*.05
Look right?
So for AC 15 at 1st level we get:
(21-10)/20+(21-10)/20*.05 = .5775 (-.05 if we want to total crits separately)
If this is true a 1st level halfing with a light crossbow would have a dpr of:
X-Bow = (4.5+3)*.5275 = 3.95625
Sneak Attack = 3.5*.5275 = 1.84625
Critical hit = (4.5+4.5 +3.5+3.5+3)*.05 = .95
Total = 6.7525
Originally posted by Sifaka:
And it follows 2nd level halfling with advantage using a light crossbow at level 2 (using cunning action and ducking behind the tall fellow every turn?):
Hit Rate would be 1-(1-.5275)*(1-.5275) = .77674375
X-Bow = (4.5+3)* .77674375 = 5.825578125
Sneak Attack = 3.5*..77674375= 2.718603125
Critical hit = (4.5+4.5 +3.5+3.5+3)*.05 = .95
Total = 9.49418125
Using Advantage every turn seems far fetched... but hey it might be possible?
Originally posted by Squad:
It's still relevant because of the choice of what to do with one's bonus action, since rogues can use their bonus action either to gain an off-hand attack or to hide and gain advantage. Both uses of the bonus action have an effect on overall dpr, so I don't see why we would factor in the effect of one (off-hand) but not the other (advantage). Otherwise you're comparing an attack+bonus action to just an attack.
Originally posted by mellored:
Hmm...
Well...
You have a 5% chance of getting a reroll.
(21-2hit)/20 * 1.05
Sanity checks.
Hit on a 1
95% * 1.05 = 99.75%
(1/400 chance to roll a 1 and 1 = 00.25%,
+4.75)
Hit on a 20
5% * 1.05 = 5.25%
(+0.25)
Hit on an 11
50% * 1.05 = 52.5%
(+2.5)
Yes?
Originally posted by borg285:
If anyone is interested, Here's a sheet where we can colaborate on calculating the DPR for the rogue. I don't know if we want to fix the race, or fix the ranged/melee choice. I vote for the choice that results in the greatest DPR over the most levels. It's not too hard to have a lower(ranged) and upper(melee) section. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the halfling seems the most optimal choice here.
