D&D 5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES

[Thirteenspades]

No, the best bet is to treat each part as separate monster of the CR listed. So you are in effect fight 9 monsters ranging from CR 45 - 60.

I mean for the encounter itself. Like when you are fighting several monsters and there's an EL or overall CR for the fight itself, which has multiple creatures. All the creature's CRs would add up at a certain ratio and explain the difficulty of the encounter.

 

[dave2008]

I mean for the encounter itself. Like when you are fighting several monsters and there's an EL or overall CR for the fight itself, which has multiple creatures. All the creature's CRs would add up at a certain ratio and explain the difficulty of the encounter.

Are you speaking in general or specifically for Ahat-Hir or primordials (part monsters)? Personally I don't worry about encounter building guidelines, but for this purposed the DMG XP method is fine.

You could also use the Mike Shea's Lazy Encounter Benchmark and simply add all the monster CR's together and compare it to the total part level (all PC levels added together) divided by 4. If the monster CR is higher than the total PC level/4 than it could be a dangerous fight.

 

[NotAYakk]

Are you speaking in general or specifically for Ahat-Hir or primordials (part monsters)? Personally I don't worry about encounter building guidelines, but for this purposed the DMG XP method is fine.

You could also use the Mike Shea's Lazy Encounter Benchmark and simply add all the monster CR's together and compare it to the total part level (all PC levels added together) divided by 4. If the monster CR is higher than the total PC level/4 than it could be a dangerous fight.

Adding up CR is similar to doing encounter size multiplication on XP.

And the DMG explicitly says don't do encounter size multiplication on serial encounters.

Fighting a CR 45 then a CR 40 encounter one after another is insanely easier than fighting them both at the same time.

Mike's encounter builder is also implicitly presuming parallel, not serial fighting.

 

[dave2008]

Adding up CR is similar to doing encounter size multiplication on XP.

And the DMG explicitly says don't do encounter size multiplication on serial encounters.

Fighting a CR 45 then a CR 40 encounter one after another is insanely easier than fighting them both at the same time.

Mike's encounter builder is also implicitly presuming parallel, not serial fighting.

Good points. However, you are fighting Ahat-Hir's parts in parallel, not serial so those metrics still apply don't they.

I remember a recent discussion on this forum about adjusting solo monster encounters. From that thread I remember if you look at the DMG it implies solo encounters don't follow the same guidelines. But I don't remember the adjustment off the top of my head.

Also, if you are fightning them in serial, why not just take the approach the new mythic monsters take in Mythic Odysseys of Theros: just treat it as serial solo fights (one encounter) and add the XP of each for the reward.

 

[Thirteenspades]

HeI think a good range would be:
Demigods and Epic Monsters: CR 20-29
Lesser gods and elder evil-type primordial monsters: CR 30-39
Greater gods and other cosmic beings: CR 40-50ish
Overgod: No CR (outside the scale)

Or something like that. I like the idea of D&D "gods" not really being "gods" in the theological sense, but more akin to highly evolved beings as in the Marvel Cinematic Universe's take on Asgardians.

I've always required epic players to attain a feat/item/deific blessing/mythic power to be able to permanently kill (and to a lesser portion damage) epic (CR 26+) creatures. Because you need more than just a bunch of damage to kill something like that. Deities can kill other deities, mortals can't. When a PC reaches that kind of power, a change shpuld occur, one that elevates them to the capabilities of gods, so that the PCs are capable of killing them. You should give players something along the lines of what I previously said, like a "Godkiller" feat, etc. The road to epic power should be challenging and long but when they reach it they are completely changed and their life force is powerful enough for their skills to have an effect on gods.

 

[Thirteenspades]

Accident

 

[dave2008]

I've always required epic players to attain a feat/item/deific blessing/mythic power to be able to permanently kill (and to a lesser portion damage) epic (CR 26+) creatures. Because you need more than just a bunch of damage to kill something like that. Deities can kill other deities, mortals can't. When a PC reaches that kind of power, a change shpuld occur, one that elevates them to the capabilities of gods, so that the PCs are capable of killing them. You should give players something along the lines of what I previously said, like a "Godkiller" feat, etc. The road to epic power should be challenging and long but when they reach it they are completely changed and their life force is powerful enough for their skills to have an effect on gods.

I basically agree. However, I see the epic boons in the DMG as being somewhat like that "god killer" feat. They take PC power well beyond normal mortal realms. However, if that would not be able to defeat a true god in my games. That is why I am working on rules for divine ascension and "true forms"

 

[Thirteenspades]

Here's my Monsters by CR table for the updated (non-pdf) version of the bestiary:
CR 57- Devastation Swarm
CR 55- Ahat-Hir
CR 53- Azathoth
CR 48- Tiamat
CR 45- Dendar, Primus, Astral Protean
CR 44- Tharizdun
CR 43- Bahamut
CR 42- Dark Force III
CR 40- Mual-Tar, Moradin
CR 39- Bane, Corellon Larethian
CR 38- Godforged Colossus, Bolothamogg / Yog-Sothoth, Gruumsh, Ioun
CR 37- Tharizdun, Maglubiyet, Palor, Emrakul, Greater Draeden
CR 36- Hecatoncheires, Erathis, Garl Glittergold, Myrkul, Yondalia, Zehir, Alduin, Balcoth, Ityaak-Ortheel, Shub-Niggurath,
CR 35- Avandra, Kord, Melora, Solcara, Baak, Demogorgon
CR 34- Loth, The Raven Queen, Sehanine, Vecna,Torog, Timesus, Cthulhu, Asmodeus
CR 33- The Lady of Pain, Ulamog (The Ceaseless Hunger), Orcus, Graz-zt, Iron Colossus
CR 32- Piranoth, Dagon, Fraz Urb'Luu, Miska the Wolf Spider, Obox-Ob, Pazuzu, Mephistopheles, Kozilek, Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, Great Wyrm Red Dragon
CR 31- Tharizdun, Tiamat-Avatar, Zaphkiel, The Queen of Chaos, Baalzebul,Great Wyrm Blue Dragon, Great Wyrm Silver Dragon, Titania, Tarrasque, Rillfane Rallathil, Kyuss
CR 30- Waukeen, Sealtiel, Lakkar, Maegera, Arendagrost, Xixecal, Phaethon, Umbral Blot, Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon, Great Wyrm Green Dragon, Emmantiensien, Oberon, The Queen of Air and Darkness
CR 29- Bane(Avatar), Semuanya, Raziel, Pale Night, Dispater, Geryon, Great Wyrm Black Dragon, Great Wyrm Copper Dragon, Damh, Eachthighern, The Prince of Frost, Draeden(Lesser)
CR 28- Devastation Beetle, Sekolah, Domiel, Pistis Sophia, Baphomet, Malcanthet, Yeenoghu, Stone Colossus, Great Wyrm Brass Dragon, Great Wyrm White Dragon, Skerrit
CR 27- Kurtulmak, Hruggek, Bachiel, Erathaol, Bjornganal, Kostchtchie, Sess'Innek, Belial, Glassya, Levistus, Mammon, Moloch, Baba Yaga
CR 26- Dibella, Thasmudyan, Zenithar, Juiblex, Fernia, Koliada, Nathair Sgiathach, Verenestra, Genius Loci
CR 25- Iuz the Old, Vaprak, Empyrean, Zuggtomy, Zariel, Ogremoch, Cerunnos, Kraken, Dragotha
CR 24-Hutijiin, Astral Dreadnought, Atropal, Ancient Gold Dragon, Ancient Red Dragon, Cryonax, Imix, 3-Headed Sirrush, Devastation Scorpion, Shadow of the Void, Iggwilv
CR 23- Laogzed, Solar, Amon, Bael, Bel, Eldrazi Swarm, Gibbering Orb, Flesh Colossus, Ancient Blue Dragon, Ancient Dragon Turtle, Ancient Silver Dragon, Olhydra, Yan-C-Bin, Cat Lord,Hyrsam, Squelaiche, Devastation Spider, Protean (Giant), Ancient Treant, Hunefer
CR 22- Blibdoolpoolp, Balor Lord, Dream Larva, Infernal, Ancient Bronze Dragon, Ancient Green Dragon, Primal Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), Caioimhin, Devastation Centipede, Repeater, Vermiurge, Brachyurus, Dodkong, Ancient Red Dragon (Dracolich), Worm that Walks
CR 21- Titivilus, Elminster, Azathoth, Beholder Hive Mother, Phane, Admantine Golem, Ancient Black Dragon, Ancient Copper Dragon, Mournwind/Velayn, Soulsorrow/Loralae, Tayellah, Mu Spore, Acerak, Lich, Winterwight
CR 20- Aire, Balor, Pit Fiend, Eclavdra, Merlin, Eldest, Chichimec, Anaxim, Ancient Brass Dragon, Ancient White Dragon, Hoary Hunter, Sirrush, Ruin Swarm
CR 19- Cat Lord, Prismasaurus
CR 18- Fionnghuala
CR 17- Arthur Pendragon, Strahd
CR 16- Mordenkainen, Elder Treant
CR 15- Iggwilv
CR 13- Morgan Le Fay

 

[dave2008]

Here's my Monsters by CR table for the updated (non-pdf) version of the bestiary:
CR 57- Devastation Swarm
CR 55- Ahat-Hir
CR 53- Azathoth
CR 48- Tiamat
CR 45- Dendar, Primus, Astral Protean
CR 44- Tharizdun
CR 43- Bahamut
CR 40- Mual-Tar, Moradin
CR 39- Bane, Corellon Larethian
CR 38- Godforged Colossus, Bolothamogg / Yog-Sothoth, Gruumsh, Ioun
CR 37- Tharizdun, Maglubiyet, Palor, Emrakul, Greater Draeden
CR 36- Hecatoncheires, Erathis, Garl Glittergold, Myrkul, Yondalia, Zehir, Alduin, Balcoth, Ityaak-Ortheel, Shub-Niggurath,
CR 35- Avandra, Kord, Melora, Solcara, Baak, Demogorgon
CR 34- Loth, The Raven Queen, Sehanine, Vecna,Torog, Timesus, Cthulhu, Asmodeus
CR 33- The Lady of Pain, Ulamog (The Ceaseless Hunger), Orcus, Graz-zt, Iron Colossus
CR 32- Piranoth, Dagon, Fraz Urb'Luu, Miska the Wolf Spider, Obox-Ob, Pazuzu, Mephistopheles, Kozilek, Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, Great Wyrm Red Dragon
CR 31- Tharizdun, Tiamat-Avatar, Zaphkiel, The Queen of Chaos, Baalzebul,Great Wyrm Blue Dragon, Great Wyrm Silver Dragon, Titania, Tarrasque, Rillfane Rallathil, Kyuss
CR 30- Waukeen, Sealtiel, Lakkar, Maegera, Arendagrost, Xixecal, Phaethon, Umbral Blot, Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon, Great Wyrm Green Dragon, Emmantiensien, Oberon, The Queen of Air and Darkness
CR 29- Bane(Avatar), Semuanya, Raziel, Pale Night, Dispater, Geryon, Great Wyrm Black Dragon, Great Wyrm Copper Dragon, Damh, Eachthighern, The Prince of Frost, Draeden(Lesser)
CR 28- Devastation Beetle, Sekolah, Domiel, Pistis Sophia, Baphomet, Malcanthet, Yeenoghu, Stone Colossus, Great Wyrm Brass Dragon, Great Wyrm White Dragon, Skerrit
CR 27- Kurtulmak, Hruggek, Bachiel, Erathaol, Bjornganal, Kostchtchie, Sess'Innek, Belial, Glassya, Levistus, Mammon, Moloch, Baba Yaga
CR 26- Dibella, Thasmudyan, Zenithar, Juiblex, Fernia, Koliada, Nathair Sgiathach, Verenestra, Genius Loci
CR 25- Iuz the Old, Vaprak, Empyrean, Zuggtomy, Zariel, Ogremoch, Cerunnos, Kraken, Dragotha
CR 24-Hutijiin, Astral Dreadnought, Atropal, Ancient Gold Dragon, Ancient Red Dragon, Cryonax, Imix, 3-Headed Sirrush, Devastation Scorpion, Shadow of the Void, Iggwilv
CR 23- Laogzed, Solar, Amon, Bael, Bel, Eldrazi Swarm, Gibbering Orb, Flesh Colossus, Ancient Blue Dragon, Ancient Dragon Turtle, Ancient Silver Dragon, Olhydra, Yan-C-Bin, Cat Lord,Hyrsam, Squelaiche, Devastation Spider, Protean (Giant), Ancient Treant, Hunefer
CR 22- Blibdoolpoolp, Balor Lord, Dream Larva, Infernal, Ancient Bronze Dragon, Ancient Green Dragon, Primal Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), Caioimhin, Devastation Centipede, Repeater, Vermiurge, Brachyurus, Dodkong, Ancient Red Dragon (Dracolich), Worm that Walks
CR 21- Titivilus, Elminster, Azathoth, Beholder Hive Mother, Phane, Admantine Golem, Anciwnt Black Dragon, Ancient Copper Dragon, Mournwind/Velayn, Soulsorrow/Loralae, Tayellah, Mu Spore, Acerak, Lich, Winterwight
CR 20- Aire, Balor, Pit Fiend, Eclavdra, Merlin, Eldest, Chichimec, Anaxim, Ancient Brass Dragon, Ancient White Dragon, Hoary Hunter, Sirrush, Ruin Swarm
CR 19- Cat Lord, Prismasaurus
CR 18- Fionnghuala
CR 17- Arthur Pendragon, Strahd
CR 16- Mordenkainen, Elder Treant
CR 15- Iggwilv
CR 13- Morgan Le Fay

Thanks! That is great to see, and a lot of work!
Just to be clear, some of these are a bit misleading. The primordials have multiple parts so they act like more than one monster of that CR. For example, the Lady of Pain may be R 33 (35), but there are 8 of those "parts." So here total encounter difficulty is much greater than a single CR 33 monster.

 

[Thirteenspades]

What are the quick stats I can use to determine CR 51+?