D&D 5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES

[Attila.Herrera]

Although this might not be the point of these monsters, how would you have players encounter these gods/devils/primordials/scary monsters? I think even with the epic boons it would still be impossible, though that might be the point.

 

[Pssthpok]

The MM already provides monsters up to 10 levels higher than PCs can ever reach in 5E... that's "epic" built right into the core monster math, right there. This all seems very... Krusty, which is enough reason to give one pause on its own. There are interesting concepts here, don't get me wrong, I'm just not sure what the point is unless PCs either get bigger Boons or more levels, neither of which necessarily seem like good ideas. It's hard enough getting a group to 20, never mind whatever hoops the DM has to contrive to justify Epic Boons. Putting currently-reachable entities like Orcus into these "beyond the pale" mid-30 CR range is "niche" to say the least, but "bloated" feels more like it.

I think if I had my druthers we'd acknowledge that PCs levels 15-20 would be classified as "epic", while monsters CR 21-25 would be classified as "immortal-tier" (c.f. ancient dragons, kraken, titan), CR 26-30 would be "lesser deity"-tier monsters (c.f. Tarrasque, Tiamat, and Orcus), while CR 31+ would be "greater deity"-tier monsters and possess party-busting fiat-like powers rather than arbitrarily high DCs, ACs, etc. I mean, at a certain point PCs have no hope against these things, why spend any time doing table math to prove it?

 

[dave2008]

I've updated the demon lords and the primordial Ahat-Hir to the new graphic format.

 

[dave2008]

p.s. Your first post is very difficult to read because the text is dark grey.

Not sure how that happend, but thank you for letting me know. I've changed it to black.

 

[dave2008]

Good stuff - I look forward to seeing this fleshed out.

That said, why not start with canon as a baseline and then expand from there? For instance, you have Demogorgon as CR 35 and WotC has him as CR 26. Are you simply going for greater "epicness?" That said, I was a bit underwhelmed with the demon princes in Out of the Abyss - I would have expected a bit more. I haven't read it thoroughly, but maybe those are the mortal plane versions and the Abyss versions would be significantly more powerful (+5-10 CR).

I think a good range would be:
Demigods and Epic Monsters: CR 20-29
Lesser gods and elder evil-type primordial monsters: CR 30-39
Greater gods and other cosmic beings: CR 40-50ish
Overgod: No CR (outside the scale)

Or something like that. I like the idea of D&D "gods" not really being "gods" in the theological sense, but more akin to highly evolved beings as in the Marvel Cinematic Universe's take on Asgardians.

In that sense, Demogorgon and other demon princes and lords would be demigods/epic monsters on the material plane, but lesser gods on their home plane.

I like my demon lords/princes more powerful than the official stats. And as noted in the OP, I believe epic monsters in general need some updating.

The Ranking I am using for my posts are as follows:

Demigods: 15-25
Lesser Gods: 26-30
Intermediate Gods: 31-35
Greater Gods: 36-40

Demon Lords: 20 -30
Demon Princes: 31-35

Dukes-of-Hell: 20-28+/-
Arch-devils: 24-35 (some of these are less about power and more about infernal rank)

Elemental lords: 15-30
Primordials: 30-50

Epic Monsters: 20-35+/-

Also, these are mortal plan versions. I haven't codified rules for home planes yet, but if you check out Tiamat you can get an idea of what I am thinking (+10 CR and some other goodies)

 

[Morrus]

Not sure how that happend, but thank you for letting me know. I've changed it to black.

That's even worse. It now looks like this:



The site has dark and light selectable skins. If you pop down to Meta (I'd link to you but I'm on my phone) there's a thread called "Dark text on a dark background tutorial" or something similar. That explains how to fix it.

 

[dave2008]

Although this might not be the point of these monsters, how would you have players encounter these gods/devils/primordials/scary monsters? I think even with the epic boons it would still be impossible, though that might be the point.

By RAW you get the following:

20th lvl PCs (w/ current Epic boons/alternates): +6 prof., +10 ability., +3 weapon = +19; 380 hit points +/-

That makes them (PCs) individually about as strong as a lesser gods and in a group they can take on intermediate or possibly greater gods.

Beyond that is either untouchable or you add in more epic boons to advance characters more. Personally, I like some things to be impossible unless you go full on accession to god hood.

 

[dave2008]

That's even worse. It now looks like this:

View attachment 70324

The site has dark and light selectable skins. If you pop down to Meta (I'd link to you but I'm on my phone) there's a thread called "Dark text on a dark background tutorial" or something similar. That explains how to fix it.

Ouch! I will make it red for now until can get time to fix it properly. Thank you!

 

[dave2008]

The MM already provides monsters up to 10 levels higher than PCs can ever reach in 5E... that's "epic" built right into the core monster math, right there. This all seems very... Krusty, which is enough reason to give one pause on its own. There are interesting concepts here, don't get me wrong, I'm just not sure what the point is unless PCs either get bigger Boons or more levels, neither of which necessarily seem like good ideas. It's hard enough getting a group to 20, never mind whatever hoops the DM has to contrive to justify Epic Boons. Putting currently-reachable entities like Orcus into these "beyond the pale" mid-30 CR range is "niche" to say the least, but "bloated" feels more like it.

I think if I had my druthers we'd acknowledge that PCs levels 15-20 would be classified as "epic", while monsters CR 21-25 would be classified as "immortal-tier" (c.f. ancient dragons, kraken, titan), CR 26-30 would be "lesser deity"-tier monsters (c.f. Tarrasque, Tiamat, and Orcus), while CR 31+ would be "greater deity"-tier monsters and possess party-busting fiat-like powers rather than arbitrarily high DCs, ACs, etc. I mean, at a certain point PCs have no hope against these things, why spend any time doing table math to prove it?

I understand your point, and that is one way of handling it. That is not they way I want to handle it. I generally believe the demon lords and gods should be virtually impossible to defeat without epic boons and epic equipment. This post is for the small niche of players who agree with that philosophy.

FYI, RAW:
A 20th lvl PC (w/ epic boons/alternates): +6 prof., +10 ability, +3 weapon = +19.

Add bless and +5 artifact and you get +23. That will give you a pretty good to-hit chance against any of these epic threats (AC 30 max).

I think a party of epicily endowed PCs could take on at least up to an intermediate god, maybe more. That seems about right to me.

I also reserved a space for additional epic boons and epic spells

 

[dave2008]

That's even worse. It now looks like this:

The site has dark and light selectable skins. If you pop down to Meta (I'd link to you but I'm on my phone) there's a thread called "Dark text on a dark background tutorial" or something similar. That explains how to fix it.

I think I fixed it, but I am not sure how to verify. Thank you for the help!