D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[tetrasodium]

I trust your experience. I am unsure how to quantify it. Googling, I couldnt find any 5e chatter about high level fullcasters being underpowered, not in recent years anyway. Likely, not enough players are playing the highest levels for the community to get a sense of where the class imbalances are. The potential imbalances wouldnt really start until, say, level 13 and higher.

There seems a consensus that unlike earlier editions, a 5e caster cannot go it alone. Because of concentration and fewer slots, the caster can only do one amazing thing at a time. Without a team, the caster is forced to multitask and flail. These kinds of discussions mention that noncasters also cannot go it alone, and need casters in their team.

I suspect 5e hit the caster with a nerf bat too hard, with the intention to end "quadradic Wizard, linear Fighter", once and for all. It might even be that 5e has now become "quadratic Fighter, linear Wizard", such as the Fighter multiple attacks multiplying increasingly high damage attacks.

DMs and players who are noticing class imbalances in their own high level campaigns need to start getting a handle on what exactly is happening, before a fix can become possible.

most of my campaigns run into the low to mid teens. I just kinda shrugged it off assuming wotc knew what they were doing & there must be areas that really make p for it whenever I noticed stuff. DiA however is so over the top slanted that it would not even serve as a believable white room scenario where nearly every monster has some combination of low ac, energy resist, energy immune, magic resist, legendary resist & it tops things off with being monty haul for noncasters with little more than a consolation prize & a few middle fingers directed at casters .

It was so bad to watch as a gm that I started looking at the math. Flatly had trouble believing it at first glance though... That lasted until I decided to play trough it as an artillerist & make this spreadsheet. From DDB's numbers something like 90% of campaigns end at or shortly after level tenish so my low-mid teens average campaign end is well outside the norm so it's not surprising that there aren't many complaints about it.

Casters in earlier editions couldn't really "go it alone" though. Arcane casters were at serious risk of lie & limb from nearly any monster from zombie up. CoDzilla was kind of a special case that required a player optimizing for that specifically and a gm who didn't do anything in encounters to counter it or give out magic items that brought other PCs up. I know exactly what is happening and can't fix it without making a whole new heartbreak rpg type fork of 5e because the system is designed with too many layers designed to fight against easy corrections like magic weapons used to offer when LFQW was a thing they actually countered.

 

[Yaarel]

most of my campaigns run into the low to mid teens. I just kinda shrugged it off assuming wotc knew what they were doing & there must be areas that really make p for it whenever I noticed stuff. DiA however is so over the top slanted that it would not even serve as a believable white room scenario where nearly every monster has some combination of low ac, energy resist, energy immune, magic resist, legendary resist & it tops things off with being monty haul for noncasters with little more than a consolation prize & a few middle fingers directed at casters .

It was so bad to watch as a gm that I started looking at the math. Flatly had trouble believing it at first glance though... That lasted until I decided to play trough it as an artillerist & make this spreadsheet. From DDB's numbers something like 90% of campaigns end at or shortly after level tenish so my low-mid teens average campaign end is well outside the norm so it's not surprising that there aren't many complaints about it.

Casters in earlier editions couldn't really "go it alone" though. Arcane casters were at serious risk of lie & limb from nearly any monster from zombie up. CoDzilla was kind of a special case that required a player optimizing for that specifically and a gm who didn't do anything in encounters to counter it or give out magic items that brought other PCs up. I know exactly what is happening and can't fix it without making a whole new heartbreak rpg type fork of 5e because the system is designed with too many layers designed to fight against easy corrections like magic weapons used to offer when LFQW was a thing they actually countered.

Heh, I know what you mean about the magic items. Even a casual glance in the DMG for what magic items are for noncasters versus what magic items are for casters, is enough to earn the ire of any caster player.

Magic items are not an issue in my campaign, because low-power items are ubiquitous, but the DMs (including me) minimize access to high-power items. The problem happens when official (!) adventures start monty-hauling the items that favor the noncasters.

I want to see more magic items the improve caster features, such improving spell DCs in the same way that attack-bonus weapons improve chance to hit.

But I want to remove all magic items from any class balance assessment.

It could be that balancing casters and noncasters is as easy as slightly increasing the number of slots 6 to 9. At the same time, casters are essentially swapping high damage for versatility, so caution is necessary to ensure that the nonversatile martials dont get eclipsed.

 

[ChaosOS]

Not a mod but if people want to talk caster vs noncaster balance that would make sense as a separate thread. At least the psion discussion was related to Dark Sun & the OP

 

[tetrasodium]

Not a mod but if people want to talk caster vs noncaster balance that would make sense as a separate thread. At least the psion discussion was related to Dark Sun & the OP

I think it's actually pretty relevant to darksun where you have a setting where wotc's spherical cow of no feats no magic items can be expected to halfway exist due to metal rather than crude bone/stone weapons being the big jump. Unfortunately wotc does not seem to even recognize it as a problem that even exists so will likely make a darksun littered with magical gear trying to fix a problem that does not exist.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I wonder how things would be quite different if the Hit Dice of said casters and what not were upped. Would the Warlock/Forge Adept Artificer be the go to 5E Gish if suddenly they were rocking D10 HP ala the Fighter? How would things change for the Bladesinger wizard if they went from a D6 to a D8 HP progression? Where the sam goody would the Barbarian go if they broke past the D12 HP dice!?!?

Ironically, the 5E Iron Kingdom: Requiem book has a legit feat where it allows you to bump up your Hit Die by one whole level, thus allowing D10 Warlocks, D8 Wizards, and D12 Fighters.

Better HD would boost the D6 HD classes the most and the larger HD classes the least, but it wouldn't actually change things by much. Its only effectively +1 HP per level, plus a couple more at 1st level. Constitution is a stat valued by all classes as well: unless you generally stay out of melee, all classes need to balance Primary stat, Dex, and Con.

The current Tough feat does more than increasing HD by one level would.

 

[SkidAce]

From a mechanical point of view, it's still safe to assume an official 5e take will have

• Psionics will still be subject to the same Counterspell and Dispel mechanics as everyone else.
• Psionics will still use the same framework of spells. Psions will be casting Dominate Person and Telekinesis at level 9, just like a wizard or sorcerer.

Does that mean psionics is magic? For differentiation purposes, the Psion may break from the standard spell slot progression, a la the Warlock. I've previously expressed I like the structure of Kibbles' Psion, with short-rest based points. But for mechanical purposes, the Psion is going to interact with the existing spellcasting system. Anything after that is dependent on the flair and flavor of your world. In Athas, it's flavorfully very different! In Eberron... Psionics is typically derived from Dal Quor or Xoriat, but that kind of external planar power isn't necessarily very different from a Druid that uses Lammania or Sorcerer touched by Fernia.

It fits my campaign lore and the years of playing, so we will likely NOT let psionics be Counterspelled. Maybe dispelled, maybe not.

 

[teitan]

It obviously does not. You'd need vastly expanded Psionic subclasses even without Psion, and ditching Psions in a book full of Psionics would feel pretty idiotic (which is as a good an argument as "humbug", I offer). Also, putting a Psion class in the book, like Artificer in Eberron, would be a very good way to move copies.

You'd be better of re-booting Dark Sun with a more novel approach rather than just trying to revisit the 2E or 4E visions of the setting, with the current stuff in 5E, which is what, three archetypes and a some feats.

WHy? they only had one Psionic class in AD&D2e. The Psion. That was it.

 

[Minigiant]

A lot of focus is put on the Psion when when all but 6 classes could warrant a variant rule, subclass, or new subsystem.

Artificer
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard

Only Barbarian, Druid. Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue could remain untouched if you are attempted to actually be faithful to any of the core ideas behind Dark Sun.

Then you get into the Cleansing Wars.

DarkSun isn't D&D set in a desert with some psionic stuff. Dark Sun changes a lot of the game and most of the lore doesn't make sense without those changes.

 

[Rikka66]

A lot of focus is put on the Psion

Because the opening post is entirely about how Dark Sun doesn't need a Psion. Probably the topic with the most contention, too.

 

[Minigiant]

Because the opening post is entirely about how Dark Sun doesn't need a Psion. Probably the topic with the most contention, too.

And that's why the title and main premise of the thread is off.

The Psion is an aftereffect of all the changes made to D&D to make Dark Sun. The changes are what make Dark Sun. The Psion is the ultimate and combined expression of them.