D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I disagree that Dark Sun 2e was incompatible with "PHB 2e" just because of the different character power curve, as 2e wasn't exactly designed for balance in the first place. Characters with extremely lucky rolled stats could appear at the same table as ones with no positive modifiers at all, and many tables expected new characters to join at 1st level even if the existing characters were much higher level.

 

[Sithlord]

I disagree that Dark Sun 2e was incompatible with "PHB 2e" just because of the different character power curve, as 2e wasn't exactly designed for balance in the first place. Characters with extremely lucky rolled stats could appear at the same table as ones with no positive modifiers at all, and many tables expected new characters to join at 1st level even if the existing characters were much higher level.

This is what I was thinking. In 2E the DM had to figure out the challenge ratings for the party himself (and I prefer it that way).

 

[Aldarc]

4e took a different tack. They didn't include some races and divine classes, but the vast majority of 4e's PH options were allowed mostly unchanged and fitted into the setting. Things like tieflings, warlocks, spellcasting bards, monks, and other options were canonized into the setting, and some 4e Dark Sun options (Drey, Half-giants) became reskins of existing races (dragonborn, goliath). It was a major break from the 2e version of the setting (and in the process also reset the timeline back to the original era) and it got a lot of praise and hatred for it. (sounds familiar...)

The 4e version of the setting was pretty brilliant in how it removed divine classes, which always felt shoe-horned into Dark Sun 2e to preserve cleric healing. But having the Warlord, Bard, and Shaman as "Leader" classes meant that WotC could rip the divine band-aid right off.

 

[Remathilis]

Races is the easy part. Getting the classes, equipment, and magic diverge greatly from base D&D. Filling that in a whole Dark Sun book with new backgrounds, a whole adventure, monsters, and all the lore and keeping the same page space and making a worthwhile book would be tough.

It's like converting 5e to Star Wars. Sure you could do it with was we have today but it'll be a shallow ugly book.

This is the fork in the road. Either Dark Sun learns to play nicely with the PHB OR it becomes some D&D adjacent game on its own with it's own collection of core rulebooks.

We've seen WotC has no interest in settings that are widely divergent from the core assumptions, and the latest Ravenloft blog reinforces the idea ("D&D is D&D, and we shouldn’t try to make it a game it isn’t."). 4e Dark Sun took this tack and I imagine 5e will go further. There is a zero percent chance you won't see all classes and many (but not necessarily all) races find a home in 5e DS.

 

[Sithlord]

This is the fork in the road. Either Dark Sun learns to play nicely with the PHB OR it becomes some D&D adjacent game on its own with it's own collection of core rulebooks.

We've seen WotC has no interest in settings that are widely divergent from the core assumptions, and the latest Ravenloft blog reinforces the idea ("D&D is D&D, and we shouldn’t try to make it a game it isn’t."). 4e Dark Sun took this tack and I imagine 5e will go further. There is a zero percent chance you won't see all classes and many (but not necessarily all) races find a home in 5e DS.

Disappointing but most likely right. I am sick of kitchen sink settings.

 

[see]

"Faster" in my post was "Not longer". With the implication that Preservers took longer.

They didn't. Preservers used the stock AD&D wizard rules entirely, including casting times.

Later on, when the defiling-when-memorizing-instead-of-casting variant came out, defilers took half as much time to memorize spells. Which still left preservers using the stock AD&D rules for time taken.

Except for a few specific modifications to spells, there was, in fact, no mechanical difference between playing a wizard in the 2E Forgotten Realms, and playing a preserver in 2E Dark Sun. Everything worked exactly the same way. This makes it incredibly simple to do preservers in a 5E Dark Sun, because you just use the 5E PHB wizard, exactly as you would for 5E Forgotten Realms.

Yes, the Dark Sun setting material was full of talk about how preservers were careful, slow, etc. Yet, mechanically, they were no slower or more careful than Raistlin, Szass Tam, or Acererak.

Psionics, including the psionicist class from the PHBR5, were a major part of Dark Sun.

Psionics were a major part of Dark Sun because everybody had a wild talent.

Psionicists were a distinct minority of PCs. Some tables might have actually had parties where a majority of players were playing psionicist class characters, but I seriously doubt those tables were common.

So, on the setting level, psion(icist)s are not actually necessary for Dark Sun. Wild talents, psi warriors, soulknives, and psionic-type feats are enough psionics to check the "psionics are everywhere" setting-feel issue.

They're not enough to fill the distinct "I am playing a member of the psion(icist) class" experience box, no. People who want to re-create that specific experience will feel it as a lack if there's no psion(icist) class, but given that most people who actually played 2E Dark Sun weren't having that experience when they played, and most of the potential audience for a 5e Dark Sun book (at least if it's going to do not-a-failure-for-5E sales figures) never played 2E Dark Sun anyway, it's not remotely essential.

 

[Minigiant]

This is the fork in the road. Either Dark Sun learns to play nicely with the PHB OR it becomes some D&D adjacent game on its own with it's own collection of core rulebooks.

We've seen WotC has no interest in settings that are widely divergent from the core assumptions, and the latest Ravenloft blog reinforces the idea ("D&D is D&D, and we shouldn’t try to make it a game it isn’t."). 4e Dark Sun took this tack and I imagine 5e will go further. There is a zero percent chance you won't see all classes and many (but not necessarily all) races find a home in 5e DS.

Can see it selling well.

4e assumed 3 PHBs to save space and allow for variants. Psion was in an assumed book and clerics ditched. That's how it saved space for variants and lore.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's really just as simple as WotC saying in a sidebar "These classes traditionally do not feature in Dark Sun. If you want a classical feeling to the setting, do not use X, Y, and Z. However, if you wish to give your players more options, you can certainly use said classes by treating their fluff like so..." and then they describe what a DS cleric or DS paladin or whatever might look like.

Traditionalist DS players won't want to use certain classes. New DS players might not care. There's no reason the book has to go all-in on one side or the other. Make a point to describe both options and let individual DMs choose how they want to run their game.

The only risk they have if they go the "here's both ways you can go" route... is dealing with the complaints from traditionalists who will whine that because WotC did not outright ban certain classes altogether, they now are "forced" to let their players play these things because heaven forbid they ever tell their players 'No'.

 

[Steampunkette]

They didn't. Preservers used the stock AD&D wizard rules entirely, including casting times.

Later on, when the defiling-when-memorizing-instead-of-casting variant came out, defilers took half as much time to memorize spells. Which still left preservers using the stock AD&D rules for time taken.

Except for a few specific modifications to spells, there was, in fact, no mechanical difference between playing a wizard in the 2E Forgotten Realms, and playing a preserver in 2E Dark Sun. Everything worked exactly the same way. This makes it incredibly simple to do preservers in a 5E Dark Sun, because you just use the 5E PHB wizard, exactly as you would for 5E Forgotten Realms.

Yes, the Dark Sun setting material was full of talk about how preservers were careful, slow, etc. Yet, mechanically, they were no slower or more careful than Raistlin, Szass Tam, or Acererak.


Psionics were a major part of Dark Sun because everybody had a wild talent.

Psionicists were a distinct minority of PCs. Some tables might have actually had parties where a majority of players were playing psionicist class characters, but I seriously doubt those tables were common.

So, on the setting level, psion(icist)s are not actually necessary for Dark Sun. Wild talents, psi warriors, soulknives, and psionic-type feats are enough psionics to check the "psionics are everywhere" setting-feel issue.

They're not enough to fill the distinct "I am playing a member of the psion(icist) class" experience box, no. People who want to re-create that specific experience will feel it as a lack if there's no psion(icist) class, but given that most people who actually played 2E Dark Sun weren't having that experience when they played, and most of the potential audience for a 5e Dark Sun book (at least if it's going to do not-a-failure-for-5E sales figures) never played 2E Dark Sun anyway, it's not remotely essential.

Really weird to take one section of an acknowledgement of misremembering and subsequent wrongness and take me to task on it as if I were still claiming that preservers took longer. Wild.

As to the second part: Your anecdotal evidence is not compelling. "Most" tables is going to be entirely subjective without TSR's numbers. Also depends on players individual enjoyment of different classes and stuff. That's up there with saying Druids aren't important in Forgotten Realms because "Most" players didn't play Druids.

As to whether the Psionicist was pretty core to the setting?

1994's The Will and the Way was a Dark Sun Specific expansion on the Psionicist Class. With additional rules for psionics as a whole, extra special material for the Psionicist class, and new sciences and devotions that people with Wild Talents just couldn't access.

Both Dark Sun and the Complete Psionics Handbook were released in the same year and meant to be used together. Did every table? Nope, clearly! Did most? No way to know. Did some choose not to use it 'cause they felt it was extraneous? Did some choose not to use it 'cause they didn't like the Psionicist class? Did a boatload not use it 'cause they couldn't afford to buy both the box and the book at the same time...?

Lotsa reasons why not... but.

But TSR kept producing content for Dark Sun and produced Dark Sun Content that was an explicit expansion on the Complete Psionics Handbook and the Psionicist class. And then 4e kept it going.

I don't know why so many people are acting like WotC somehow thinks Psionicists aren't a core part of Dark Sun when they released the PHB3 for 4e on March 16th 2010 and then dropped Dark Sun on August 17th the same year. Roughly as far apart as the Complete Psionics Handbook and Dark Sun box set for 2e.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't know why so many people are acting like WotC somehow thinks Psionicists aren't a core part of Dark Sun when they released the PHB3 for 4e on March 16th 2010 and then dropped Dark Sun on August 17th the same year. Roughly as far apart as the Complete Psionics Handbook and Dark Sun box set for 2e.

We know 2010 WotC thought it was important to have psionics released for Dark Sun. We don't know if 2021 WotC feels the same way.

I honestly have no idea what direction WotC will take Dark Sun if/when they release it, which is kind of refreshing.