D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Steampunkette]

Here is my thoughts.

"Magic" manifests in a variety of mechanical ways: spells are the most common but you see things like class features (channel divinity, wild shape, invocations) that are also "magic" but not spells.

D&D used terms like Arcane, Divine, Primal, etc to describe how these effects originate, but they are 100% fluff and have no mechanical weight. Further, they aren't intrinsic to the class itself, as a subclass like the divine soul sorcerer reflavors the normally arcane sorcerer into a divine class.

Psionics is just another flavor description like Arcane or Divine; a way to describe why an ability functions. It can be a "spell" or it can be a class ability (such as the soul knife's psi-blades). And That works just fine in 99% of all D&D settings because it doesn't matter where the"magic" comes from as long as it's effect is balanced.

Except in Dark Sun. Dark Sun cares too much about where it comes from. Dark Sun wants to ban divine, corrupt arcane, limit primal and others and exalt psionics. Which doesn't work with 5e because there is no link between these terms and how the game handles magic.

To whit: most people would argue a sorcerer is an arcane class. It fits the aesthetic and has been described as such. In a Dark Sun game, it would be subjected to the defiling rules (if it were allowed at all, purists are a fickle group). However, not all sorcerers are Arcane. Divine Soul sorcerers are divine powered. Aberrant Mind sorcerers are Psionic. Arguments can be made about Shadow sorcerers using shadow magic or storm sorcerers using primal or elemental. If power source matters, every one of those subclasses could be subjected to different rules, despite being 95% the same class.

So the biggest problem is that classes don't neatly fit into power source boxes anymore. That makes designing rules to interact with them tricky if not impossible to future proof.

The easy answer is to put them in the boxes.

Even if d&d as a base does not recognize a difference between divine magic and arcane magic for the purposes of mechanics we can still use it in Dark Sun by applying that definition.

Also worth noting in Dark Sun? I would consider divine soul sorcerers to be arcane casters even when they cast spells that come from the cleric spell list.

Because the real definition of divine magic is that it can be taken away. If you don't do what your God wants or you break your oath your power goes away. The divine soul sorcerer has that divine spark inside of himself so that power cannot be taken away.

Also I probably wouldn't allow Divine soul sorcerers in Athas anyway.

 

[Yaarel]

Assuming they even have extended reach. Ogres and trolls are Large and have standard 5-foot reach (even though trolls are usually thought of as long-limbed). Whereas PC bugbears do have extended reach! Even though their NPC kin don't.

(I'm working on a Large-sized heritage for Level Up, and this post made me go double-check to see whether I needed to include extended reach for them. I don't.)

It turns out the reach itself wasnt the problem. The problem was the opportunity attacks being able to target so many opponents.

Because 5e can only have one opportunity attack, the reach itself doesnt matter. It doesnt matter if the one op attack is 5 or 10 or 15 away.

In any case, 5e larger creatures have less reach than in earlier editions.

 

[Yaarel]

So as long as its called magic, you're alright with psionics having their own sub-system?

The Psion is a full spellcaster. So either standard mechanics or Warlock mechanics is appropriate.

(I personally dislike Sorcerer meta mechanics.)

But for an other class, say like the Soulknife, that could have been done without any spells, just class features.

 

[Yaarel]

I am sincerely uncertain how to respond to this without coming across as a complete jerk.

Heh, too late.

I think it shall suffice to say that I do not believe you understand how telekinetics work as a concept.

I'm certain you could run it that way in a game that you like. But it certainly does not reflect Athas or d&d in general. Or real world ideas behind telekinesis.

It sounds like you are unfamiliar with various reallife mysticism traditions.

Also, you seem to not understand what D&D psychokinesis is. Do you imagine that invisible tentacles are coming out of the brain to move the object?

A mind can move things, because, in some sense, mind is everywhere.

"Mind over matter", is because the mind is the fundament.

In D&D, the Weave is everywhere. But the Weave is psychosensitive. Psionic mages perceive the Weave as "mind".

 

[Shardstone]

The Psion is a full spellcaster. So either standard mechanics or Warlock mechanics is appropriate.

(I personally dislike Sorcerer meta mechanics.)

But for an other class, say like the Soulknife, that could have been done without any spells, just class features.

You dodged my question entirely to say something else.

Why does it have to be done with spell slots if other magical effects aren't? Why does it have to be just class features if not all magical effects are? Why do you draw the line w/ the Psion but not with the monk, etc

 

[Steampunkette]

Heh, too late.



It sounds like you are unfamiliar with various reallife mysticism traditions.

Also, you seem to not understand what D&D psychokinesis is. Do you imagine that invisible tentacles are coming out of the brain to move the object?

A mind can move things, because, in some sense, mind is everywhere.

"Mind over matter", is because the mind is the fundament.

In D&D, the Weave is everywhere. But the Weave is psychosensitive. Psionic mages perceive the Weave as "mind".

I do not believe there is anything coming out of a person's head when they use telekinesis. The definition of telekinesis is far movement. Moving something that is far away from you with your mind. That is the long and the short of it. You create a force which affects the object and moves the object. That's it. If you want to get into real world physics on it I guess you could say you are altering its kinetic potential to change direction and move?

Do you think the telekinesis spell has magic tentacles jumping out of your head? Or only functions because every rock you could possibly use telekinesis on is automatically magical?

If that's the case, do rocks count as magic improvised weapons when you fling them at a giant's head?

It doesn't require a mind to be attached to the rock for a supernatural power to move the rock. Nor does it require some sort of magical function to be attached to the rock for magic to move a rock.

I get that 5e is big on the idea of the weave, but it is a really limiting perspective.

Psionic telekinesis is just you making an object move using a force at a distance. You're not interacting with the thing's mind, as that would be telepathy!

 

[Yaarel]

I do not believe there is anything coming out of a person's head when they use telekinesis. The definition of telekinesis is far movement. Moving something that is far away from you with your mind. That is the long and the short of it. You create a force which affects the object and moves the object. That's it. If you want to get into real world physics on it I guess you could say you are altering its kinetic potential to change direction and move?

Do you think the telekinesis spell has magic tentacles jumping out of your head? Or only functions because every rock you could possibly use telekinesis on is automatically magical?

If that's the case, do rocks count as magic improvised weapons when you fling them at a giant's head?

It doesn't require a mind to be attached to the rock for a supernatural power to move the rock. Nor does it require some sort of magical function to be attached to the rock for magic to move a rock.

I get that 5e is big on the idea of the weave, but it is a really limiting perspective.

Psionic telekinesis is just you making an object move using a force at a distance. You're not interacting with the thing's mind, as that would be telepathy!

"The definition of telekinesis is ... moving something that is far way from you with your mind."

And how, exactly, does that happen?

Normally, one thinks of a mind as residing in the brain inside a skull. How is this mind ALSO, at the same time, far away to push an object?

The answer is, the mind is somehow everywhere, even beyond ones own personal perspective.

Compare Hinduism − Atman is the personal mind and Brahman is the universal mind − and the insight is, they are actually the same thing from different perspectives.

 

[Redwizard007]

I'm getting hung up on what changes are really necessary and what is just us die-hards whining.

Races
Aarakocra - as printed
Dray - use dragonborn. Possibly limit their heritage to a specific color.
Dwarf - Hill and Mountain dwarf as printed. Focus could be added, but what does it really bring to the table?
Elf - use Eladrin, High, Mark of Shadow, Shadar-kai, Wood subraces as printed. Nerf their age and boost movement to 35'
Half-dwarf (Mul) - use half-orc. It fits really, really well.
Half-elf - basic half-elf as printed
Halfling - as printed
Half-giants - use goliath. Yeah, I want them to be large too, but goliaths really do work. Replace cold resistance with resistance to heat.
Human - as printed
Kenku - as printed
Ssurran - use lizardfolk
Tari - use either Goblins or Kobolds. I'm partial to kobolds.
Thri-kreen - Should be added as a PC race, but honestly would be fine as a monster only
Yuan-ti - as printed

There are plenty of other races that could be dropped in as native to outlying areas or islands in the Sea of Silt
Sure, everything needs at least a half-page of re-fluffing, but they are doable.

Classes
Artificer - personally, I hate this class, but there is no other reason to exclude it. Both Artillerist and Battlesmith are probably bad fits.
Barbarian - fine
Bard - OMG, no poison! Who cares? Take proficiency in poisoners kit and be done with it.
Cleric - WE DONT NEED NEW DOMAINS! Pick any domain and flavor it as your elemental variant. Problem solved.
Druid - Yeah, this doesn't really fit the old DS lore, but we are going to run with it anyway. Fluff may tie druids to a specific area.
Fighter - fine
Gladiator - this is a background, not a class.
Monk - fine
Paladin - fine. That's right, I said it. Now that the class isn't tied to an alignment these guys should be back on the table.
Ranger - fine. Natural Explorer needs "desert" broken into all the terrains of Athas, but that's it.
Rogue - fine.
Sorcerer - fine except for Clockwork, Divine and Dragon. If Psion never sees print then this is my wanna be. Use spell points.
Warlock - Just add a Sorcerer King patron and presto! We've got Templars. Shucks. You could even use the existing patrons.
Wizard - fine. Every wizard can (choose to) defile for a 50% chance of not losing the spell slot when casting a leveled spell.
Psion - I like don't hate the psionic subclasses, but we need a dedicated Psion with 3 subclasses. Metamorph, Psychic, and Kineticist.

So how much work would actually be necessary to do a Dark Sun book right? less than we've seen with Ravenloft.

 

[Steampunkette]

"The definition of telekinesis is ... moving something that is far way from you with your mind."

And how, exactly, does that happen?

Normally, one thinks of a mind as residing in the brain inside a skull. How is this mind ALSO, at the same time, far away to push an object?

The answer is, the mind is somehow everywhere, even beyond ones own personal perspective.

Compare Hinduism − Atman is the personal mind and Brahman is the universal mind − and the insight is, they are actually the same thing from different perspectives.

The answer is: It just does.

Your mind doesn't leave your skull. But you cause the object to move. The same sort of effect happens when a Wizard casts Telekinesis. The magic makes the object move in the same way a psionic power does.

There's no connection between mind and object, or object and air particles, or invisible tentacles.

It just moves.

That's what makes Psionics a supernatural effect. It is "Beyond Nature" or "Outside Nature". It doesn't follow the laws of physics.

And... at the risk of getting into dangerous territory: Atman is not the mind or the body or the consciousness, but that which permeates them all. What westerners would largely just call a Soul.

 

[Yaarel]

Or only functions because every rock you could possibly use telekinesis on is automatically magical?

If that's the case, do rocks count as magic improvised weapons when you fling them at a giant's head?

It doesn't require a mind to be attached to the rock for a supernatural power to move the rock. Nor does it require some sort of magical function to be attached to the rock for magic to move a rock.

According to animism, the desire of the mind of a rock is, to be a rock.

If a rock is doing anything unusual (such as appearing in peoples dreams or moving around or whatever) then probably something unusual is going on that somehow agitating the rock in some way.

In Dark Sun, many features of nature can be crying out for help.

In animism, there is a sense that the more "significant" a natural feature is to a community, the more "present" it is mentally. The more "power" or "spirit", or influence it has.

So some rocks can be more mentally prominent than others, and exhibit more "personality".

Normally, it is better to avoid personifying the mind of an animistic feature of nature. But it can happen. Sometimes the mind of a natural feature can manifest nearby the feature in the form of a human. But again, the mind of the feature is actually nonhuman.