D&D 5E 5e Hobgoblin stat block

[Nikosandros]

I was discussing this ability with my son, since he comes from the newer editions, I wanted to get his input on the martial advantage ability.

I was surprised that even he thought it was a bit much and offered that perhaps it should only work when the hobgoblin's ally also has the Martial Advantage ability, which makes it less like a rogues sneak attack, and more like two skilled warriors fighting in tandem.

I certainly would prefer something like that (even though 2d6 still sounds a bit excessive). In 4e hobgoblins have powers like Formation Strike and Phalanx Soldier that require another hobgoblin.

 

[ClauDeDoin]

That's my understanding as well, but in this context, I find the idea of fractional CR (i.e. 1/2) somewhat baffling.

For whatever reason, they seem to want greater granularity when categorizing low-level threats - i.e. a CR 1/2 monster is relatively easier than a CR 1 and relatively harder than a CR 1/4. At minimum, they have some reason for thinking the CR system benefits from having fractions below 1. Either way, as most everyone else has noted, until encounter- and monster-building guidelines are available, we're pretty much stuck with guesswork.

 

[tomBitonti]

This, I feel, is an unfair situation for understanding the discussion -- the creatures here should not be set against a level 1 party: depending on the goblin CR (either 1/4 or 1/2), this is a CR2 or 3 encounter -- a difficult challenge for a party of level 2 or3 characters. It might be a fun situation to run, just not against level 1 characters -- absolutely the goblins should mop the floor with level 1 PCs.

The sim was against a party of four at 2'nd level.

Against a 1'st level party, use 2 goblins and 1 hobgoblin.

This sort of ambush is exactly what a hobgoblin would use. If a party were working their way around a goblin/hobgoblin outpost, then left to recover, then returned, they should very much run into this fight.

The Hobgoblin is trained and is ruthless, and should use his abilities effectively.

I still have a problem with the any ally adjacent text. A goblin spotter hiding in a bush next to a player qualifies. Would an animal companion (or familiar) hiding in a bush qualify?

I can understand that many (or some) don't think that should work. That says to me the text should be changed.

Myself, I think the ability should be 1d6 and only work with an ally that has the same ability who is engaged in melee with the same opponent.

Thx!

TomB

 

[thalmin]

For whatever reason, they seem to want greater granularity when categorizing low-level threats - i.e. a CR 1/2 monster is relatively easier than a CR 1 and relatively harder than a CR 1/4. At minimum, they have some reason for thinking the CR system benefits from having fractions below 1. Either way, as most everyone else has noted, until encounter- and monster-building guidelines are available, we're pretty much stuck with guesswork.

If the default party consists of 4 characters, maybe CR1/4 is suitable for a single character lvl 1, and CR 1/2 is suitable for 2 characters? I guess we should find out soon.

 

[ClauDeDoin]

If the default party consists of 4 characters, maybe CR1/4 is suitable for a single character lvl 1, and CR 1/2 is suitable for 2 characters? I guess we should find out soon.

That's definitely a sensible way for the pieces to come together. A single hobgoblin vs. 2 1st-level PCs, for example, wouldn't be able to make use of Martial Advantage because he'd have no allies.

 

[Ruzak]

I think as a DM I would interpret "ally who is not incapacitated" as someone who is actually a fighting ally, using a looser interpretation of "incapacitated."

I wish they left incapacitated out entirely and left it as an (obvious IMHO) DM ruling to exclude that case. Including these unnecessarily rules undermine the common sense philosophy they are going for.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Based on Mike Mearls's latest comments about CRs (Table Topping interview, 23:30 min. and onward), XP budgets determine the number of creatures in a given encounter. Adding up CRs is not a substitute for that budget calculation because CRs tell you only whether monsters are "moderate to challenging" for a given party of a given level. In other words, the DM would build an encounter for a 1st-level party by picking monsters of CR 1 (or below) and combine them until she met the XP budget for that encounter.

This is only true if there is a disconnect between CR and XP. If all CR 2 monsters are worth 450 XP, then it will be possible to reconstruct the XP budget table using CR without loss. (Although the math might be complex.)

I'm still hoping to see a CR 2 monster that's worth 225 or 300 XP - say one that doesn't have the HP of the ogre but has, say, an area effect attack that's too deadly for 1st level characters. A wizard with burning hands or something.

 

[ClauDeDoin]

This is only true if there is a disconnect between CR and XP. If all CR 2 monsters are worth 450 XP, then it will be possible to reconstruct the XP budget table using CR without loss. (Although the math might be complex.)

I'm still hoping to see a CR 2 monster that's worth 225 or 300 XP - say one that doesn't have the HP of the ogre but has, say, an area effect attack that's too deadly for 1st level characters. A wizard with burning hands or something.

That's entirely possible. Mearls didn't address any other connection(s) between CRs and XP budgets in the interview, so we'll have to see what we can glean from additional monster spoilers.

 

[Blackbrrd]

This is only true if there is a disconnect between CR and XP. If all CR 2 monsters are worth 450 XP, then it will be possible to reconstruct the XP budget table using CR without loss. (Although the math might be complex.)

I'm still hoping to see a CR 2 monster that's worth 225 or 300 XP - say one that doesn't have the HP of the ogre but has, say, an area effect attack that's too deadly for 1st level characters. A wizard with burning hands or something.

There will be a disconnect, you got something like the normal-elite-solo divide from 4e.

 

[Tazawa]

I did another simulation with 4 2nd level adventurers vs. 2 hobgoblins and 4 goblins. The hobgoblins set up an ambush on a forested road. The hobgoblins were at the end of the road armed with their bows and the goblins were about 40' in front of them, two hidden in the bushes on each side of the road.

The first thing that happened was that the eagle-eyed elf wizard spotted the goblins hiding well before the party reached the ambush location. Figuring the party could easily deal with ambush if they were aware of it, I ignored this result.

I then moved the party forward and gave the hobgoblins and goblins a surprise round with the party in ideal ambush position. The hobgoblins focused their fire on the wizard. The wizard was hit once, despite getting half cover from standing behind the fighter. The goblins attacked and did some minor damage to the cleric and wizard.

I could have had the goblins remain hidden, but I couldn't ignore the fact that the wizard could see them any longer. Plus they're goblins! Not nearly as disciplined as hobgoblins.

In the second round, the hobgoblins hit the wizard one more time and almost killed him outright. He was only down for a moment though as the cleric healed him back up. The rogue and fighter both killed a goblin and the wizard missed with shocking grasp.

In the third round, the hobgoblins missed the still prone wizard. The cleric missed but rogue took out another goblin. The wizard cast sleep and took out a hobgoblin. The fighter charged the remaining hobgoblin and killed it with a single blow. At this point the combat was effectively over.

The hobgoblins fared better in this scenario but only after I put a lot of factors in their favour. Martial Advantage with a ranged weapon definitely gives an advantage to the hobgoblins, but it is hard to get consistently due to the fact that melee allies get taken out pretty quickly. Of course at higher levels (3rd or 4th maybe), 4 hobgoblins paired with an allied ogre could cause real havoc. That's not necessarily a bad thing. ;-)

Happy gaming!