D&D 5E 5E imbalance: Don't want to play it

[pemerton]

Initiative is rolled per side and when during a particular side's turn an individual gets to act depends on what they are doing.

But unless initiative is simultaneous, one side gets to do all their stuff before the other side gets to do its stuff. That's the "freeze frame" issue right there.

But looking at the initiative rules they are totally freeze frame. I shoot arrows you shoot arrows. I move and attack you move and attack. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I've always played AD&D (and B/X) as go through each of those phases for the winning side, then for the losing side. But here you seem to be saying here that you go through the phases collectively, with the winning side going first in each phase and then the losing side going next, but all archers going before all casters going before all melee-ers, etc.

From memory Rolemaster 2nd ed works this way. I don't think I've come across AD&D run this way, though.

If my action is to move and the magic-user's action is to cast a lightning bolt we need to figure out whether I've just stepped into his blast or not. And so on. (this last example is one of many reasons we went to individual initiatives in 1e rather than init.-by-side - if my action is to move and my initiative is 'x' then I'm assumed to get where I'm going on my init. and it's pretty easy to figure out where I am at init. x-1, x-2 and so on in case anything happens to me en route)

I've used this sort of "continuous initiative" in Rolemaster. But I don't think it's the default approach in AD&D, is it? I don't remember any discussion of it in the DMG, nor in Moldvay Basic.

There may have been assumptions about the action but there is no actual support for those assumptions.

I think Lanefan is talking about continuous initiative. But I agree with you that without continuous initiative, or a system for off-turn actions (a la 4e), then talking about constant and simultaneous motion is just colour, but has no effect on resolution.

 

[MerricB]

But unless initiative is simultaneous, one side gets to do all their stuff before the other side gets to do its stuff. That's the "freeze frame" issue right there.

I've always played AD&D (and B/X) as go through each of those phases for the winning side, then for the losing side. But here you seem to be saying here that you go through the phases collectively, with the winning side going first in each phase and then the losing side going next, but all archers going before all casters going before all melee-ers, etc.

It almost worked that way in Combat & Tactics - where the speed of the action meant you were alternating between sides. AD&D 1E can sort of work that way... it's complicated.

OD&D in Eldritch Wizardry had a particularly complicated version of initiative, which was never seen again.

 

[pemerton]

AD&D 1E can sort of work that way... it's complicated.

How so? I was reading that section the other day. In the sequence listing towards the start of the section, my memory is that it expressly says go through steps A to Z for team 1, then repeat for team 2 that lost initiative.

Outside of tied initiative, when do you get phase-style initiative in AD&D that crosses over the two sides?

 

[MerricB]

How so? I was reading that section the other day. In the sequence listing towards the start of the section, my memory is that it expressly says go through steps A to Z for team 1, then repeat for team 2 that lost initiative.

Although it says that, that is swiftly contradicted in the following text (which then contradicts itself further).

Missile fire is adjusted for the attacker's Dex, so it's possible for the loser of initiative to fire first. (page 64 "Dexterity Penalty and Bonus Considerations")

Spell casting is really complicated. When you have a melee weapon vs spell, the loser of initiative can strike first, dependent on a comparison of the initiative die rolls, weapon speed and casting time ("Other Weapon Factor Determinants", page 66). Otherwise "Attacks directed at spell casters will come on that segment of the round shown on the opponent's or on their own side's initiative die, whichever is applicable." (Spell Casting During Melee, page 65) It is sort of implied that a spell takes effect in the segment of the round indicated by the casting time (thus Magic Missile occurs during the first segment), but as the two methods of determining when attacks take place actually don't work together very well, it's hard to say what actually happens.

When charging, the longer weapon strikes first. ("Melee at end of charge", page 66). And given it takes time to move, one assumes this happens later in the round than attacks where the characters are already in melee!

But the description of how it works in AD&D is a dog's breakfast. My own AD&D campaign uses bits and pieces depending on how I'm feeling.

Cheers!

 

[Cybit]

What can you tell me about Polymorph. Even with the latest Rule of 3 answer, it still looks broken to me as an attack spell.

Why is Web hard to land? At 3rd level the save DC is 10+stat - let's say 13, or 14 at 4th level.

Looking through some typical low level monsters (kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, carnivorous apes, orcs) I saw DEX bonuses from +0 to +2. That's a 50% chance or better at being restrained, which looks like fairly good control to me.

What am I missing?

(Likewise for Stinking Cloud, although a lot of creatures seem to have higher CON than DEX.)

Save DC is 8 + Casting Mod + Prof bonus (it says 10+ in the how to play document, but the actual classes file says 8 +).

Because if I'm reading Web right, they get a save when it is first cast, and then a strength check if they do get hit. Also, if anyone hits the wizard (who, because they have web out, have nothing but mage armor as a defensive spell for the most part), the mage better have a good Con as they now have to make a check to keep the spell going.

Polymorph is..interesting. I'm more worried about it as a defensive spell rather than an offensive spell.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Polymorph is..interesting. I'm more worried about it as a defensive spell rather than an offensive spell.

Hasn't that always been the case though? Iconic effect, but troubling to implement. They really need two spells - one designed to be used on enemies, and one to be used on friends (one to hinder, one to augment).

 

[pemerton]

Save DC is 8 + Casting Mod + Prof bonus (it says 10+ in the how to play document, but the actual classes file says 8 +).

Yes. Prof bonus at 3rd/4th level is +2. Hence 10 + stat, as I said in my post - around 13 or 14.

if I'm reading Web right, they get a save when it is first cast, and then a strength check if they do get hit. Also, if anyone hits the wizard (who, because they have web out, have nothing but mage armor as a defensive spell for the most part), the mage better have a good Con as they now have to make a check to keep the spell going.

I'm a little wary of this paticular aspect of concentration being nominated as a strong balancing factor: I've played a lot of Rolemaster, which has concentration as a duration for lots of spells (and in RM concentration ends on a miss). Obviously it's a limitation, but players become adept at taking steps to avoid being hit. And many opponents in a typical fantasy RPG don't have ranged attacks.

Obviously I don't know about the package you're using, but in the latest public package there is no save when 1st hit. The target gest a save when s/he starts his/her turn in the web, or when s/he enters the web for the first time in his/her turn. To get a STR save you have to spend an action, which means the spell has a good chance of soaking 1 turn or more for any given target (failed DEX save, so it makes a STR save to get out). That's certainly not weak.

What is a typical number of enemies? Somewhat opposite to fireball, I think the more enemies the weaker Web will be, as it is AoE action denial rather than AoE damage.

 

[Cybit]

Yes. Prof bonus at 3rd/4th level is +2. Hence 10 + stat, as I said in my post - around 13 or 14.

I'm a little wary of this paticular aspect of concentration being nominated as a strong balancing factor: I've played a lot of Rolemaster, which has concentration as a duration for lots of spells (and in RM concentration ends on a miss). Obviously it's a limitation, but players become adept at taking steps to avoid being hit. And many opponents in a typical fantasy RPG don't have ranged attacks.

Obviously I don't know about the package you're using, but in the latest public package there is no save when 1st hit. The target gest a save when s/he starts his/her turn in the web, or when s/he enters the web for the first time in his/her turn. To get a STR save you have to spend an action, which means the spell has a good chance of soaking 1 turn or more for any given target (failed DEX save, so it makes a STR save to get out). That's certainly not weak.

What is a typical number of enemies? Somewhat opposite to fireball, I think the more enemies the weaker Web will be, as it is AoE action denial rather than AoE damage.

Aye, based on the public playtest, I've voiced my concerns about the potential AoE action denial web has; but I think that has more to do with clarification of how the spell works. Polymorph is the other spell (what a surprise, right?) that based on the public playtest needs some clarification, methinks.

 

[pemerton]

Polymorph is the other spell (what a surprise, right?) that based on the public playtest needs some clarification

Polymorph definitely. Dominate looks good too: Hold grants periodic saves but for some reason Dominate doesn't.

Evard's also looks very strong: the AoE features of Web (action denial) combined with the AoE features of fireball (damage).

 

[Cybit]

Polymorph definitely. Dominate looks good too: Hold grants periodic saves but for some reason Dominate doesn't.

Evard's also looks very strong: the AoE features of Web (action denial) combined with the AoE features of fireball (damage).

Evard's has the same issue Web does - I am hoping all such spells will get clarification. I wouldn't worry much about Dominate.