(5e) IMMORTAL RULES

[Thirteenspades]

So I made this epic spell, the format is different as it's built as an ability for a monster- Orcus Divine, to be exact. He's become CR 40 (therefore being able to cast the Last Word again) when he discovers the shard of Tenebrous' soul when he was still a full-fledged deity, then he kills Demogorgon and takes over the Abyss. This is probably WAY overpowered, but what the Abyss, it's supposed to be. Orcus' innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence.

Spoiler: read if you dare!

Unholy Meteor Storm (1/Day):
Ranged Spell Attack: +20 to succeed, reach 5 miles. Hit: 79 (20d6 + 9) fire damage and equal amounts of bludgeoning and necrotic damage, or half of each on a successful saving throw.
"Blazing orbs of evil energy plummet to the ground at 40 different points within a 600 ft radius sphere. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a DC 35 Dexterity saving throw. The sphere spreads around corners. A creature in the area of more than one black meteor is affected an according number of times."
Unholy Meteor Storm damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects.

 

[NotAYakk]

So the immortal variant...

In general, I find games where you spend "XP" to do cool stuff in the game annoying. While I get the strategic gameplay of "husband power to use it more efficiently", I personally think that making a cool god-weapon shouldn't be a stupid thing that makes you a lower level god.

I'd instead want to encourage players to take their QP (aka XP) and spend it on changing the world. This might also risk that QP.

The God creating a plane is an investment of QP, not a spending of QP. Destroying the plane does hurt the God, so there is some risk, but QP that just sits inside the god does nothing useful.

Similarly, I'd vote against your "point buy level up" system. "Spend QP on HD" -- rather, gaining QP should give you HD. Understanding the balance of a point-buy system is cute, but this is D&D not spreadsheets and calculators. Don't get me wrong, I love doing math, but as the writer you should do the math, the DM and players shouldn't.

Third, one of the things many many editions of D&D have claimed is that Gods are just a bit beyond the realm of mortals. Sure, they have insane special abilities, like the ability to create avatars, destroy continents, etc. Your system is crazy-exponential: and I don't think we need that for fun immortal play.

Imagine we just do a little tweak.

Demigod: Level 20 mortal with max HD, plus 1d20 HD per demigod level.

Each Demigod level might grant +1 to all attributes and +1 to all attribute cap or something, along with epic boon tier abilities (maybe more than 1 per level). Maybe 1 QP per level. Each QP would be tied to some permanent alternation of reality (a plane, an artifact, etc). Each Demigod level gives you 1 such "manifestation". So at Demigod, you have 5 "level 1" manifestations.

Demigod PCs would be a step above level 20 PCs in power. Each demigod level might be "worth" 2 points of CR roughly; so a level 5 Demigod might find CR 30 fights "even".

And maybe 5 Demigod levels, so caps out at 26 max in stats.

Lesser God: Level 5 demigod can ascend to being a lesser power. 5 levels again, and 2d20 HD per level (so 20 mortal HD, plus 15d20 as a god). Stats might go up +1 per level, so caps out at 30 stat. 3 QP per level, so you go from 1-5 QP as a demigod, to 8-20 QP as a lesser god.

As a Lesser Power you can invest 2 QP in a manifestation. So by level 5 lesser power, you have 5 level 2 manifestations.

Power Level 5 lesser power can ascend to being a power. 5 levels again, and 4d20 HD per level (20 mortal HD, 35d20 as a god). Stats go up +1 per level, so caps out at 35 stat. 3 QP per level, so 23-45 QP as a greater god. You can end up with 15 manifestations, each with 3 QP.

Greater Power. Level 5 power can ascend to being a greater power. 7 QP per level, so 52-80 QP, and 20 manifestations each with 4 QP. Stats go up +1 per level, so 40 max stat.

Each tier is worth +1 proficiency as well.

 

[Thirteenspades]

I'd instead want to encourage players to take their QP (aka XP) and spend it on changing the world. This might also risk that QP.

The God creating a plane is an investment of QP, not a spending of QP. Destroying the plane does hurt the God, so there is some risk, but QP that just sits inside the god does nothing useful.

Similarly, I'd vote against your "point buy level up" system. "Spend QP on HD" -- rather, gaining QP should give you HD. Understanding the balance of a point-buy system is cute, but this is D&D not spreadsheets and calculators. Don't get me wrong, I love doing math, but as the writer you should do the math, the DM and players shouldn't.

Third, one of the things many many editions of D&D have claimed is that Gods are just a bit beyond the realm of mortals. Sure, they have insane special abilities, like the ability to create avatars, destroy continents, etc. Your system is crazy-exponential: and I don't think we need that for fun immortal play.

Imagine we just do a little tweak.

Demigod: Level 20 mortal with max HD, plus 1d20 HD per demigod level.

Each Demigod level might grant +1 to all attributes and +1 to all attribute cap or something, along with epic boon tier abilities (maybe more than 1 per level). Maybe 1 QP per level. Each QP would be tied to some permanent alternation of reality (a plane, an artifact, etc). Each Demigod level gives you 1 such "manifestation". So at Demigod, you have 5 "level 1" manifestations.

Demigod PCs would be a step above level 20 PCs in power. Each demigod level might be "worth" 2 points of CR roughly; so a level 5 Demigod might find CR 30 fights "even".

And maybe 5 Demigod levels, so caps out at 26 max in stats.

Lesser God: Level 5 demigod can ascend to being a lesser power. 5 levels again, and 2d20 HD per level (so 20 mortal HD, plus 15d20 as a god). Stats might go up +1 per level, so caps out at 30 stat. 3 QP per level, so you go from 1-5 QP as a demigod, to 8-20 QP as a lesser god.

As a Lesser Power you can invest 2 QP in a manifestation. So by level 5 lesser power, you have 5 level 2 manifestations.

Power Level 5 lesser power can ascend to being a power. 5 levels again, and 4d20 HD per level (20 mortal HD, 35d20 as a god). Stats go up +1 per level, so caps out at 35 stat. 3 QP per level, so 23-45 QP as a greater god. You can end up with 15 manifestations, each with 3 QP.

Greater Power. Level 5 power can ascend to being a greater power. 7 QP per level, so 52-80 QP, and 20 manifestations each with 4 QP. Stats go up +1 per level, so 40 max stat.

Each tier is worth +1 proficiency as well.

Like if you earn points in a game and are rewarded something when you REACH the point level, not SPEND it.

 

[NotAYakk]

Like if you earn points in a game and are rewarded something when you REACH the point level, not SPEND it.

Or rather, when your points in a game are based on what you have bought in the game, not on your unspent points.

I get the strategy of "horde points for victory condition", I just don't really like it in my RPG. I've disliked it ever since I saw it way back in shadowrun karma (which was both hero points and XP; so by doing heroic and risky things, you slow down your character advancement. Meh.)

---

Now what I sketched has issues. The QP are a bit funny money, and don't work well as XP because they are "too big" at demigod level.

Manifestation: A manifestation has up to 4 tiers. Demigods can only create rank 1 manifestations, lesser powers rank 2, powers rank 3 and greater powers rank 4.

The QP you need to invest in a manifestation is:
Rank 1: 10
Rank 2: 30 (or 20 additional)
Rank 3: 60 (or 30 additional)
Rank 4: 100 (or 40 additional)

You can have 1 manifestation, plus 1 per divine level, at a time. If you go below your divine level in manifestations you lose that divine level. If this causes your manifestations to be above your rank, each day they have a 1 in 20 chance of degrading.

Spoiler

Quadradic here

Divine Rank: each rank of divine (demigod, lesser power, power and greater power) has 5 levels for a total of 20 divine levels. In order to reach the next level as a divine, you need create a manifestation at the rank appropriate for your new level. When you do so, one of your existing lower-Rank manifestations also upgrades to your full Rank.

Spoiler

Building your power based on your stuff, not on your points, and spend points on stuff. Story generation

Earning QP: When you earn QP, you halve it for every Rank past Demigod. So a Rank 4 divine earns QP at 1/8 the rate of a Demigod.

Spoiler

This gives exponentially times quadratically slower progression at higher ranks, and if breaking a manifestation of another divine frees up the QP, it makes this non-zero-sum. Where does QP come from? If there is only a fixed amount, then gods spiral downward in total power over time...

---

Now this becomes a game of inventing fun manifestations to have, and giving them 4 ranks based on the tier of god. An Avatar can be a manifestation, an artifact weapon, a plane, etc.

You could also limit the number of manifestations of a given type to your divine rank. So a demigod can have one artifact weapon, a lesser power 2, a power 3 and a greater power 4. That would help reduce "manifestation optimization". Also, as at least some kinds of manifestations aren't on your person, it provides adventure hooks (your manifestation is in danger!)

 

[dave2008]

So I made this epic spell, the format is different as it's built as an ability for a monster- Orcus Divine, to be exact. He's become CR 40 (therefore being able to cast the Last Word again) when he discovers the shard of Tenebrous' soul when he was still a full-fledged deity, then he kills Demogorgon and takes over the Abyss. This is probably WAY overpowered, but what the Abyss, it's supposed to be. Orcus' innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence.

Spoiler: read if you dare!

Unholy Meteor Storm (1/Day):
Ranged Spell Attack: +20 to succeed, reach 5 miles. Hit: 79 (20d6 + 9) fire damage and equal amounts of bludgeoning and necrotic damage, or half of each on a successful saving throw.
"Blazing orbs of evil energy plummet to the ground at 40 different points within a 600 ft radius sphere. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a DC 35 Dexterity saving throw. The sphere spreads around corners. A creature in the area of more than one black meteor is affected an according number of times."
Unholy Meteor Storm damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects.

Sorry for the late reply - I wasn't watching my own darn thread!

As noted the language and format are off, but that is not big deal. First question, what level is this supposed to be? In general it is fine, I don't like that the overlapping damage stacks, that takes it from probably a little under power to potentially crazy over powered. Unless I am not understanding the intent.

Interestingly, at one point I had the Last Word as an elder spell: primal semi-sentient spells that are the foundation of reality. They simple must exist and must have a host and only the host can use the spell. Orcus wasn't powerful enough to use it full power though and eventual had to give it up. At full power the spell could destroy a plane or possible the multiverse itself.

 

[dave2008]

So the immortal variant...

In general, I find games where you spend "XP" to do cool stuff in the game annoying. While I get the strategic gameplay of "husband power to use it more efficiently", I personally think that making a cool god-weapon shouldn't be a stupid thing that makes you a lower level god.

I'd instead want to encourage players to take their QP (aka XP) and spend it on changing the world. This might also risk that QP.

The God creating a plane is an investment of QP, not a spending of QP. Destroying the plane does hurt the God, so there is some risk, but QP that just sits inside the god does nothing useful.

Similarly, I'd vote against your "point buy level up" system. "Spend QP on HD" -- rather, gaining QP should give you HD. Understanding the balance of a point-buy system is cute, but this is D&D not spreadsheets and calculators. Don't get me wrong, I love doing math, but as the writer you should do the math, the DM and players shouldn't.

Third, one of the things many many editions of D&D have claimed is that Gods are just a bit beyond the realm of mortals. Sure, they have insane special abilities, like the ability to create avatars, destroy continents, etc. Your system is crazy-exponential: and I don't think we need that for fun immortal play.

Imagine we just do a little tweak.

Demigod: Level 20 mortal with max HD, plus 1d20 HD per demigod level.

Each Demigod level might grant +1 to all attributes and +1 to all attribute cap or something, along with epic boon tier abilities (maybe more than 1 per level). Maybe 1 QP per level. Each QP would be tied to some permanent alternation of reality (a plane, an artifact, etc). Each Demigod level gives you 1 such "manifestation". So at Demigod, you have 5 "level 1" manifestations.

Demigod PCs would be a step above level 20 PCs in power. Each demigod level might be "worth" 2 points of CR roughly; so a level 5 Demigod might find CR 30 fights "even".

And maybe 5 Demigod levels, so caps out at 26 max in stats.

Lesser God: Level 5 demigod can ascend to being a lesser power. 5 levels again, and 2d20 HD per level (so 20 mortal HD, plus 15d20 as a god). Stats might go up +1 per level, so caps out at 30 stat. 3 QP per level, so you go from 1-5 QP as a demigod, to 8-20 QP as a lesser god.

As a Lesser Power you can invest 2 QP in a manifestation. So by level 5 lesser power, you have 5 level 2 manifestations.

Power Level 5 lesser power can ascend to being a power. 5 levels again, and 4d20 HD per level (20 mortal HD, 35d20 as a god). Stats go up +1 per level, so caps out at 35 stat. 3 QP per level, so 23-45 QP as a greater god. You can end up with 15 manifestations, each with 3 QP.

Greater Power. Level 5 power can ascend to being a greater power. 7 QP per level, so 52-80 QP, and 20 manifestations each with 4 QP. Stats go up +1 per level, so 40 max stat.

Each tier is worth +1 proficiency as well.

@NotAYakk , thank you for the comments. I am not going to get to much into it, but I basically agree with you and I have pretty much changed everything about this some what. I'm publishing the first issue soon, so I don't want to go into to many details. But I have gone back to a more traditional divine level thing where you get standard things (like HD) at each level. You spend QP to express your Authority which is used to create planes, artifacts, and change reality (within the range of your aura).

If I get more time I will look into your ideas in more detail. Thanks for sharing!

 

[dave2008]

Third, one of the things many many editions of D&D have claimed is that Gods are just a bit beyond the realm of mortals.

2e, 4e, and 5e all have gods that are outside the realm of mortal play. 4e and 5e have some gods that are mortal adjacent too. However, i am not really interested in creating that paradigm. In this version, I am going back to the 2e version (and BECMI) and making gods outside the realm of mortals. Mortals can dare with their avatars.

 

[dave2008]

Or rather, when your points in a game are based on what you have bought in the game, not on your unspent points.

I get the strategy of "horde points for victory condition", I just don't really like it in my RPG. I've disliked it ever since I saw it way back in shadowrun karma (which was both hero points and XP; so by doing heroic and risky things, you slow down your character advancement. Meh.)

---

Now what I sketched has issues. The QP are a bit funny money, and don't work well as XP because they are "too big" at demigod level.

Manifestation: A manifestation has up to 4 tiers. Demigods can only create rank 1 manifestations, lesser powers rank 2, powers rank 3 and greater powers rank 4.

The QP you need to invest in a manifestation is:
Rank 1: 10
Rank 2: 30 (or 20 additional)
Rank 3: 60 (or 30 additional)
Rank 4: 100 (or 40 additional)

You can have 1 manifestation, plus 1 per divine level, at a time. If you go below your divine level in manifestations you lose that divine level. If this causes your manifestations to be above your rank, each day they have a 1 in 20 chance of degrading.

Spoiler

Quadradic here

Divine Rank: each rank of divine (demigod, lesser power, power and greater power) has 5 levels for a total of 20 divine levels. In order to reach the next level as a divine, you need create a manifestation at the rank appropriate for your new level. When you do so, one of your existing lower-Rank manifestations also upgrades to your full Rank.

Spoiler

Building your power based on your stuff, not on your points, and spend points on stuff. Story generation

Earning QP: When you earn QP, you halve it for every Rank past Demigod. So a Rank 4 divine earns QP at 1/8 the rate of a Demigod.

Spoiler

This gives exponentially times quadratically slower progression at higher ranks, and if breaking a manifestation of another divine frees up the QP, it makes this non-zero-sum. Where does QP come from? If there is only a fixed amount, then gods spiral downward in total power over time...

---

Now this becomes a game of inventing fun manifestations to have, and giving them 4 ranks based on the tier of god. An Avatar can be a manifestation, an artifact weapon, a plane, etc.

You could also limit the number of manifestations of a given type to your divine rank. So a demigod can have one artifact weapon, a lesser power 2, a power 3 and a greater power 4. That would help reduce "manifestation optimization". Also, as at least some kinds of manifestations aren't on your person, it provides adventure hooks (your manifestation is in danger!)

Again thank you for your thoughts and comments. Before I respond in more detail, could you clarify what you are calling a manifestation? Unless I missed it is unclear what you mean by that term.

 

[NotAYakk]

Again thank you for your thoughts and comments. Before I respond in more detail, could you clarify what you are calling a manifestation? Unless I missed it is unclear what you mean by that term.

Ah. Manifestation is the name for what you stuff QP into.

Thor's Hammer. Valhalla itself. An army of Valkaries that harvest the heros of battle. The rainbow bridge.

Each power gets 1 manifestation per divine level. This means players are world building as gods. They earn QP, stuff them into a manifestation (of their divine will), and gain a divine level.

Each kind of manifestation has a rank. Rank 1 gods (level 1-5, aka demigods) can only have rank 1 manifestations. At level 5, they can make their first rank 2 manifestation, which levels them up to divine level 6 (rank 2, lesser power).

The act of manifesting their will with QP is what gives them divine levels.

This links world building with advancement. And all of those manifestations are things the power has to defend.

Manifestation categories:
Artifact (wrapon, armor, etc)
Avatar (projection of self)
Plane (a home base)
Host (an planar army that does a task)
Church (a mortal organization that performs miracles)
Nexus (a location of power, grove, henge, ley line, fortress)
Rivalry (A bond of battle with a divine foe)
Doom (A divine curse on someone or somethings)

I could imagine 4 ranks of each of the above, vague enough to allow creativity.

Why do gods havd worshippers? Because it is a manifestation of their will. And those manifestations are what anchor divine power.

They don't gain power from mortals. They pour power into mortals, and use them as anchors for that power.

 

[dave2008]

Ah. Manifestation is the name for what you stuff QP into.

Thor's Hammer. Valhalla itself. An army of Valkaries that harvest the heros of battle. The rainbow bridge.

Each power gets 1 manifestation per divine level. This means players are world building as gods. They earn QP, stuff them into a manifestation (of their divine will), and gain a divine level.

Each kind of manifestation has a rank. Rank 1 gods (level 1-5, aka demigods) can only have rank 1 manifestations. At level 5, they can make their first rank 2 manifestation, which levels them up to divine level 6 (rank 2, lesser power).

The act of manifesting their will with QP is what gives them divine levels.

This links world building with advancement. And all of those manifestations are things the power has to defend.

Manifestation categories:
Artifact (wrapon, armor, etc)
Avatar (projection of self)
Plane (a home base)
Host (an planar army that does a task)
Church (a mortal organization that performs miracles)
Nexus (a location of power, grove, henge, ley line, fortress)
Rivalry (A bond of battle with a divine foe)
Doom (A divine curse on someone or somethings)

I could imagine 4 ranks of each of the above, vague enough to allow creativity.

Why do gods havd worshippers? Because it is a manifestation of their will. And those manifestations are what anchor divine power.

They don't gain power from mortals. They pour power into mortals, and use them as anchors for that power.

OK, interesting and definitely has similarities to what I am doing, i even have 5 divine levels for each rank (what I call "Exalted Rank")

ER 1 - Demigod
ER 2 - Lesser god
ER 3 - Intermediate god
ER 4 - Greater god
ER 5 - Elder god
ER 6 - Over god

However, I simply allow them to gain levels and ranks by acquiring QP (with an optional rule for a divine Olympics as in the Immortal Rules). Speaking of which, how are you envisioning characters / gods gain QP?

Also, I do allow god to gain power from worshipers (it is an optional rule), but it is not required and only a small amount. It gives them a reason to have worshipers and be interested in them.

I both like and don't like the idea of linking advancement to world building. It is fun idea and might be fun to play, but it seems oddly restricting for a god to depending on "world-building" to advance. I want more freedom for my gods. However, it does remind me of an optional rule set I am working one which I am calling "God Mode" currently (just a working title). Which is a mini-game of world building where rounds are measured in years as you interact and influnce the world and your worshipers. The idea being by gaining more worshipers you gain more QP. It is just a concept at the moment i'm saving that for issue 5 or 6. So this way world building is an option, but not required.

Anyway, a lot of great ideas. Thank you for sharing.