(5e) IMMORTAL RULES

[NotAYakk]

However, I simply allow them to gain levels and ranks by acquiring QP (with an optional rule for a divine Olympics as in the Immortal Rules). Speaking of which, how are you envisioning characters / gods gain QP?

I was basing mine of of yours, and didn't change that. Break other god's Manifestations, kill other gods, find external sources.

The "you get a fraction of the QP you are exposed to" past demigod means that inter-god conflict is negative sum; it reduces the total QP in play. So external sources of QP provide a campaign drive.

Also, I do allow god to gain power from worshipers (it is an optional rule), but it is not required and only a small amount. It gives them a reason to have worshipers and be interested in them.

I get it; but when I came up with the manifestation idea, I realized that a church could be just another manifestation. As important to a god as their signature hammer, no more no less. Sucks to lose it, but it isn't a source of their power; rather, it is a place their power is grounded.

I both like and don't like the idea of linking advancement to world building. It is fun idea and might be fun to play, but it seems oddly restricting for a god to depending on "world-building" to advance.

So part of the point of rules is to provide an engine to create story.

(a) I want gods to have fun toys.
(b) If fun toys are free, they aren't as fun.
(c) If fun toys are expensive, players don't to play with them much.
(d) If fun toys are sub-optimal, you get an annoying conflict in the player's experience.

So making a limited number of fun toys free as part of advancement.

The idea that "thor's hammer" actually contains a bit of Thor's divine essence is a really cool one. If you extend this to all of a God's works -- plane, forts, angels -- it provides you with fun toys, in limited numbers, that the god wants to both protect and use.

Instead of "wave your hand, rainbow bridge" or "spend 100 years using crafting rules, rainbow bridge" it is "become a power, rainbow bridge".

The god doesn't get "I can teleport anywhere in creation because I'm a greater power", it gets "I control a rainbow bridge that lets me teleport anywhere in creation, because I am a power, and invested some of my QP in it". They have "godlike power", but not arbitrary godlike power -- their godlike powers are tied to their manifestations.

I mean, a greater power's "plane" rank 4 manifestation might be "a prime material plane". That is pretty darn impressive; literally a campaign setting as a "class feature". At the same time, they aren't making prime material planes willy-nilly (it is 5%+ of that greater god's divine power budget), nor does it require a time-skip of a few million years of god-crafting. A rank 4 "allies" might be a pantheon.

I want more freedom for my gods.

Where is the story being generated if they can do anything?

Restrictions provide scaffolding to create a story.

I started from the QP->artifact and QP->advancement ideas, and ran with it. Make it QP->artifact->advancement, and every god has weak points, every god can be whittled away at, and (most importantly) every god changes the universe.

Now, some solitary NPC god could have some strange set of manifestations that are hidden or whatever.

This also gives "outer beings" like the far realm a reason why they are pushing into this universe and ... manifesting. Their manifestations in this realm anchor their powers to this realm. Fighting and purging those manifestations is like keeping termites from eating your house.

 

[dave2008]

I was basing mine of of yours, and didn't change that. Break other god's Manifestations, kill other gods, find external sources.

The "you get a fraction of the QP you are exposed to" past demigod means that inter-god conflict is negative sum; it reduces the total QP in play. So external sources of QP provide a campaign drive.

OK, that is just a portion of the sources in the current rules. You can get QP from fonts, artifacts, and worshipers, in addition to directly from other exalted.

I get it; but when I came up with the manifestation idea, I realized that a church could be just another manifestation. As important to a god as their signature hammer, no more no less. Sucks to lose it, but it isn't a source of their power; rather, it is a place their power is grounded.

Again, it is an interesting idea. Just not the route I'm taking.

So part of the point of rules is to provide an engine to create story.

(a) I want gods to have fun toys.
(b) If fun toys are free, they aren't as fun.
(c) If fun toys are expensive, players don't to play with them much.
(d) If fun toys are sub-optimal, you get an annoying conflict in the player's experience.

So making a limited number of fun toys free as part of advancement.

Yes, that is what I am doing in the current version.

The idea that "thor's hammer" actually contains a bit of Thor's divine essence is a really cool one. If you extend this to all of a God's works -- plane, forts, angels -- it provides you with fun toys, in limited numbers, that the god wants to both protect and use.

Instead of "wave your hand, rainbow bridge" or "spend 100 years using crafting rules, rainbow bridge" it is "become a power, rainbow bridge".

The god doesn't get "I can teleport anywhere in creation because I'm a greater power", it gets "I control a rainbow bridge that lets me teleport anywhere in creation, because I am a power, and invested some of my QP in it". They have "godlike power", but not arbitrary godlike power -- their godlike powers are tied to their manifestations.

I mean, a greater power's "plane" rank 4 manifestation might be "a prime material plane". That is pretty darn impressive; literally a campaign setting as a "class feature". At the same time, they aren't making prime material planes willy-nilly (it is 5%+ of that greater god's divine power budget), nor does it require a time-skip of a few million years of god-crafting. A rank 4 "allies" might be a pantheon.

Lots of great ideas and similar to what I am doing in the new version; however, you've taken it a bit further conceptually. I am not personally so tied to the idea of "manifestations" as you are - but I do like it and it is not incompatible with what I am doing now. However, I think it would have to be more fully incorporated in issue 5+.

Where is the story being generated if they can do anything?

Restrictions provide scaffolding to create a story.

I started from the QP->artifact and QP->advancement ideas, and ran with it. Make it QP->artifact->advancement, and every god has weak points, every god can be whittled away at, and (most importantly) every god changes the universe.

Now, some solitary NPC god could have some strange set of manifestations that are hidden or whatever.

This also gives "outer beings" like the far realm a reason why they are pushing into this universe and ... manifesting. Their manifestations in this realm anchor their powers to this realm. Fighting and purging those manifestations is like keeping termites from eating your house.

I never said they could do anything. My gods definitely have restrictions.

Personally I have been vacillating about how much I should limit. Initially it was completely free form and you just spend QP to get/do things. Then I did an almost 180 and made it very similar to standard D&D with set gains at each level & rank with restricted uses based on rest. Now I have a combination of the two. However, I've begun to feel that I have too many subsystems and it is getting overly complex. Maybe your manifestation concept is a method to simplify things and have a unifying concept. I will definitely look at it through that lens after I get the draft complete.

 

[Thirteenspades]

Also, I do allow god to gain power from worshipers (it is an optional rule), but it is not required and only a small amount. It gives them a reason to have worshipers and be interested in them.

Yeah, the number of worshippers should play a part. Not at the level of MOOT though (in typical campaigns). Also, having very few or no worshippers shouldn't reduce a power to nothing (in the case of certain unknown apocalyptic beings). More like a boon or a convenience than a means to achieve an end.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, the number of worshippers should play a part. Not at the level of MOOT though (in typical campaigns). Also, having very few or no worshippers shouldn't reduce a power to nothing (in the case of certain unknown apocalyptic beings). More like a boon or a convenience than a means to achieve an end.

Yes, currently worshipers only give you more power, a lack of them never reduces your power.

 

[Thirteenspades]

Sorry for the late reply - I wasn't watching my own darn thread!

As noted the language and format are off, but that is not big deal. First question, what level is this supposed to be? In general it is fine, I don't like that the overlapping damage stacks, that takes it from probably a little under power to potentially crazy over powered. Unless I am not understanding the intent.

Interestingly, at one point I had the Last Word as an elder spell: primal semi-sentient spells that are the foundation of reality. They simple must exist and must have a host and only the host can use the spell. Orcus wasn't powerful enough to use it full power though and eventual had to give it up. At full power the spell could destroy a plane or possible the multiverse itself.

Here is a revised version of the spell, now in spell format instead of monster attack.

Spoiler: READ IF YOU DARE

Black Rain
12th-level Evocation
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 5 miles
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Prerequisite: CR 38
Cost: 4QP
"Blazing orbs of evil energy plummet to the ground at 40 different points within a 200 ft radius sphere. They have an AC of 21, 180 hit points and are Huge size. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw based on your level + your Intelligence modifier. On a success, the creature may spend a move action to avoid the meteor and take the nearest space next to it. On a failure, the creature suffers 20D6 + (your intelligence modifier) each of fire, bludgeoning and necrotic damage, and is restrained under the meteor or knocked prone (caster's choice).
The sphere spreads around corners.
A creature in the area of more than one black meteor must make seperate saving throws and on a success suffers half damage and on both a failure and success is restrained under the meteor or knocked prone (caster's choice). Each creature that suffers more than one meteor strike suffers 5 less Hit Dice of damage (minimum 5)."
Each round, a creature restrained under the Meteor may make a DC 38 Strength saving throw. Targets of a size category above medium have a cumulative +10 advantage, and creatures under medium have a -15 disadvantage. On a failure it suffers 65 (10D12) bludgeoning damage - the creature's Constitution modifier and 39 fire damage, half of both on a success.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell at 13th level, double the damage of each effect, add 20 more meteors and increase the radius by 200 feet.

 

[dave2008]

Here is a revised version of the spell, now in spell format instead of monster attack.

Spoiler: READ IF YOU DARE

Black Rain
12th-level Evocation
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 5 miles
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Prerequisite: CR 38
Cost: 4QP
"Blazing orbs of evil energy plummet to the ground at 40 different points within a 200 ft radius sphere. They have an AC of 21, 180 hit points and are Huge size. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw based on your level + your Intelligence modifier. On a success, the creature may spend a move action to avoid the meteor and take the nearest space next to it. On a failure, the creature suffers 20D6 + (your intelligence modifier) each of fire, bludgeoning and necrotic damage, and is restrained under the meteor or knocked prone (caster's choice).
The sphere spreads around corners.
A creature in the area of more than one black meteor must make seperate saving throws and on a success suffers half damage and on both a failure and success is restrained under the meteor or knocked prone (caster's choice). Each creature that suffers more than one meteor strike suffers 5 less Hit Dice of damage (minimum 5)."
Each round, a creature restrained under the Meteor may make a DC 38 Strength saving throw. Targets of a size category above medium have a cumulative +10 advantage, and creatures under medium have a -15 disadvantage. On a failure it suffers 65 (10D12) bludgeoning damage - the creature's Constitution modifier and 39 fire damage, half of both on a success.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell at 13th level, double the damage of each effect, add 20 more meteors and increase the radius by 200 feet.

Thanks for sharing!
You changed quite a bit. First comment: there are no 13th level spells, so you could remove the "At Higher levels" part.

In general I feel this spell lacks a bit of focus and is trying to a bit of everything. Additionally, it seems needless complex and I think I understand the intent, but I am not sure I understand the mechanics. For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid being restrained and then there is no way to end that condition:

"...on both a failure and success is restrained under the meteor..." and "...Each round, a creature restrained under the Meteor may make a DC 38 Strength saving throw. .., half of both on a success..."

No mention of how to avoid or stop being restrained.

Also, the meteors are described as Huge (15x15) and yet they cause bludgeoning damage in a 40 ft. radius which implies they explode. However, they don't because the targets are also pinned beneath them. But is that just in the 15x15 area of the meteor, or the whole 40' radius (which doesn't really make sense).

Also, the stacking damage is still a problem IMO. It wants to be both massive damage (stacking) and huge area damage (basically the whole 20ft radius if space properly).

I guess spells that do multiple things (area damage, massive damage, restraining) can work, but they tend to very thematic (like prismatic spray & wall). I feel this one might need another draft. I just feel it is a bit unclear.

"

 

[Haldrik]

For many reasons, reallife and gaming, I would focus more on immortality and less on being worshiped as a god. Let each setting explain any relevant social status for any long-living creatures. Relatedly, D&D 4e had many different kinds of epic destinies, including nonreligious attainment. There can be epic Wizard with alchemical philosopher stone, Archfey Elf becoming epic, Elementalist transmogrifying, Psionic Mind, and so on. All of them achieve immortality.

 

[dave2008]

For many reasons, reallife and gaming, I would focus more on immortality and less on being worshiped as a god. Let each setting explain any relevant social status for any long-living creatures. Relatedly, D&D 4e had many different kinds of epic destinies, including nonreligious attainment. There can be epic Wizard with alchemical philosopher stone, Archfey Elf becoming epic, Elementalist transmogrifying, Psionic Mind, and so on. All of them achieve immortality.

Thank you for the post. However, i don't know what your talking about. Are you responding to something in particular?

 

[Haldrik]

Thank you for the post. However, i don't know what your talking about. Are you responding to something in particular?

The OP and following posts generally, its titles and ways of characterizing epic.

 

[dave2008]

The OP and following posts generally, its titles and ways of characterizing epic.

OK, what do you mean by "...focus on immortality..."? I can think of a couple different ways to take that and am curious what you meant.

Also, I am not planning on doing anything setting specific at this time. I am also specifically not trying to create "epic wizards." like 4e epic destinies or other epic character class methods. There are several options (on the DMsGuild and UA Reddit) that cover that type of game. This project is to allow character's to transcend the mortal realm and play gods. So for this game the baseline is immortality, not the goal.

PS. Notice the thread is called "Immortal Rules" not epic rules. Epic is for mortal PCs, this is something different.

PSS These rules are terribly out of date (the OP was 3 years ago). I am getting ready to published an update version of these rules, so I haven't been posting updates here in a long time.