5e invisibility and Detect Magic

[Ovinomancer]

Are you assuming that they make noise?

The logic applies both ways I would think.


Things like this will always be a judgement call, there is no right or wrong.

Exactly. The "problem" is:

1. Assume iron golems are perfectly silent when immobile.
2. Roll a stealth check for an invisible, immobile iron golem.
3. Complain that the stealth rules don't wirk when 2, predictably, result in failure.

My entire point is either don't do 1 or don't do 2 after doing 1. Problem ceases to exist.

As has been amply pointed out, the rules are mum on 1, so it can whatever you want on that matter. There's no logically better answer because there is no logical answer, only whatever you imagine. But, again, if you imagine deathly quiet iron golems, just don't roll stealth for invisible ones.

 

[Oofta]

Exactly. The "problem" is:

1. Assume iron golems are perfectly silent when immobile.
2. Roll a stealth check for an invisible, immobile iron golem.
3. Complain that the stealth rules don't wirk when 2, predictably, result in failure.

My entire point is either don't do 1 or don't do 2 after doing 1. Problem ceases to exist.

As has been amply pointed out, the rules are mum on 1, so it can whatever you want on that matter. There's no logically better answer because there is no logical answer, only whatever you imagine. But, again, if you imagine deathly quiet iron golems, just don't roll stealth for invisible ones.

Or ... only worry about stealth rolls when the golem is actually moving. Until then assume it's silent, much like inactive skeletons, mimics, gargoyles, rug of smothering, so on and so forth.

It's called "making a ruling that makes sense by the rules, to the players and the DM and not assuming that the rules could ever cover every niche or even try."

Rule differently? Fine. Just stop saying everyone else rules wrong because we disagree with you.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Or ... only worry about stealth rolls when the golem is actually moving. Until then assume it's silent, much like inactive skeletons, mimics, gargoyles, rug of smothering, so on and so forth.

It's called "making a ruling that makes sense by the rules, to the players and the DM and not assuming that the rules could ever cover every niche or even try."

Rule differently? Fine. Just stop saying everyone else rules wrong because we disagree with you.

So, you say don't do 2 if you do 1, only you say it's me telling you you're playing wrong? Shine on, you crazy diamond, shine on.

 

[Maxperson]

I never said that "you just wouldn't see it at all until the first strike came in," or anthing similar, so I'm confused as to who you're agreeing with.

But, back to the point I was making, it's your assumption that golems make no noise, not the rules'. The rules say iron golems have a -1 stealth check only. From that, you may surmise that iron golems are not usually successful at hiding. Why is up for grabs, but assuming that iron golems are entirely silent when standing still is on you, not the rules.

This is just another rulings over rules situation. All the -1 to stealth means to me is that they make a ton of noise when trying to sneak up behind someone. Unfortunately, the rules can't take every situation into account, such as being loud while moving, but silent while still. Trying to add all the special circumstances the rules don't cover to all the creatures who would have them would at the very least quadruple the book size.

I see no reason why the -1 stealth would apply to a golem standing perfectly still and would rule the same as [MENTION=28301]smbakeresq[/MENTION].

My point is that if you bring assumptions into the mix and pre-narrate things like perfectly silent iron golems, the issue with how the rules work isn't the rules, it's your assumptions.

It's not an assumption. It's a ruling.

 

[Maxperson]

An iron golem has a jointed body made of iron plates that would make a tremendous grinding noise at the slightest movement. Its joints, if not oiled sufficiently, would creak, even with very small motions. It follows orders to the best of its ability, but even if ordered to stand perfectly still and to make no sound whatsoever, its ability to do so may be somewhat limited as evidenced by its DEX score. Likewise, standing and doing nothing isn't the same as deliberately remaining silent for the purpose of avoiding notice.

It doesn't have muscles that will tire and need to move. Once it is in a position, it will stay that way forever, until its master gives it instructions, or prior orders kick in. There's no reason for it to need to use dex to stand still.

 

[Maxperson]

Exactly. The "problem" is:

1. Assume iron golems are perfectly silent when immobile.
2. Roll a stealth check for an invisible, immobile iron golem.
3. Complain that the stealth rules don't wirk when 2, predictably, result in failure.

My entire point is either don't do 1 or don't do 2 after doing 1. Problem ceases to exist.

Why would you do #2 at all? You don't roll for an auto success.

 

[Ovinomancer]

This is just another rulings over rules situation. All the -1 to stealth means to me is that they make a ton of noise when trying to sneak up behind someone. Unfortunately, the rules can't take every situation into account, such as being loud while moving, but silent while still. Trying to add all the special circumstances the rules don't cover to all the creatures who would have them would at the very least quadruple the book size.

I see no reason why the -1 stealth would apply to a golem standing perfectly still and would rule the same as [MENTION=28301]smbakeresq[/MENTION].



It's not an assumption. It's a ruling.

Why would you do #2 at all? You don't roll for an auto success.

Same answer to both, here. If you're going to rule that the golem is silent, don't roll. If you don't rule this, or decide it's uncertain, roll and narrate the roll appropriately.

I'm really struggling to figure out what the hang up people have with this is. You keep telling me I'm disagreeing with you while you repeat what I'm saying back to me.

My only point is that it's not a rules failure to roll stealth and get a low result if you've already decided the situation should be an auto-success to hide. It's a narration problem or a rule procedure problem. Don't roll for things you've already decided, or, alternatively, don't decide beforehand for things you're going to roll.

In this case, if you decide the golem is the strong, quiet type, DON'T ROLL STEALTH. If, instead, you decide it's uncertain and roll stealth, don't decide the golem is being silent before the fact -- NARRATE THE ROLL.

 

[Hriston]

According to Ovinomancer none of that occurs when a golem moves as it is not explicitly stated in the description. You can't infer that a metal creature that weighs thousands of pound makes noise when it moves as it is not stated at all just like you cant infer that a motionless, lifeless construct would be silent when not moving and taking no actions.

You can, but to me it's more fun to engage the mechanics to find out if it makes noise or not.

I will put a microphone by my car to record all the sounds it makes when it is sitting in my driveway with the engine off and completely cooled down from driving so you don't hear the heat dissipation.

Your car isn't a creature. An iron golem is and may act in ways that are unpredictable.

It sounds absurd when you put it like that doesn't it? Doing nothing is different then trying to remain silent, but its a construct that is not alive as we think it is, it needs no air, so you wouldn't hear breath. It has no heartbeat or circulatory system as an organic being would. I guess you could say the spirit that animates would make noise of some form, but the spirit is described as having no will of its own.

If it was animated by an air spirit I could see it, the air moving around. That's the argument for the invisible stalker, you cant see it and all you hear is the wind (stealth check +10.) This is a tiny earth spirit that just sits there with the will to do nothing but obey.

I don't understand what you think is implied by the animating spirit having no will of its own. Why would that make the golem good at being quiet?

I have seen these arguments before, that passive perception lets you always detect an inanimate motionless object like a rug of smothering that is just sitting on the floor like a real rug since its stealth bonus is only +2 so its passive stealth would be 12. Those rules for the rug though state it is specifically "False Appearance. While the rug remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from a normal rug" which to me means you will never be allowed a check to perceive it as anything else unless you take a specific action to check it out.

That isn't how I understand that trait. False Appearance lets a creature like the rug of smothering hide in plain sight, which most creatures are unable to do. Whether or not it is noticed is still resolved by the usual method, however.

I understand that the golem rules do not include that specific language. A fully visible but motionless Iron Golem to me would be just like an Iron Statue and I would describe it as such to the players, it would not have to make a stealth check to conceal itself as an inanimate iron statue of itself, and your passive perception wouldn't let you detect it as an iron golem automatically. If you took an action to check it out, sure.

I can imagine an iron golem specifically built to resemble a statue having something like False Appearance, but the one in the Monster Manual doesn't. Looking at the picture of the iron golem in the Monster Manual, it looks much more sinister than you'd normally expect any statue to look. As a DM, I would describe the golem as it appears to the PCs. Assuming they haven't seen one before, I wouldn't use the term iron golem either, but then I'm not in the habit of telling the players the names of the monsters unless they've become very familiar to the PCs.

I understand though that the explanation in the paragraph above is not specifically stated in the rules and that many DMs (it seems) would have the PCs instantly notice a motionless iron golem as an iron golem and not a statue right away as the PC passive checks would beat the golems passive stealth check (9). I used passive stealth since a motionless golem waiting for a trigger or order is taking the stealth action over and over so would be an average result for a task done repeatedly or 9 for the Golem. At least one PC will have a passive perception of 9 or more in every group.

I wouldn't recommend using a passive Stealth score. The result of a single DEX (Stealth) check is supposed to remain in effect for the duration of a creature's attempt to remain hidden. I also wouldn't consider a golem in plain sight as having any ability to hide. The PCs would simply see the golem as it appears standing in front of them. What they do or think about it is up to them.

 

[Hriston]

Why would it creak? Why would it shift? It has no muscles that would get stiff. It never needs to scratch it's nose unless ordered to do so. It' doesn't need to be told to stand perfectly still. Unless commanded otherwise, it's just a big inanimate hunk of metal.

Old castles and dungeons can be very drafty, causing the golem to sway ever so slightly, not to mention the eerie whistling sound made by the breeze passing through its body.

 

[Hriston]

It doesn't have muscles that will tire and need to move. Once it is in a position, it will stay that way forever, until its master gives it instructions, or prior orders kick in. There's no reason for it to need to use dex to stand still.

I'm not saying it has muscles, but how do you think it resists the pull of gravity? What force is holding its jointed body in a fixed position?