5e needs a Faiths and Avatars style book

[Irennan]

I agree that the sudden love in from Lolths son especially is WTF I mean Lolth has killed most of them of the Pantheon at some point or majorly wrecked their plans. Or both usually.

Lolth did nearly nothing, actually, the rest of the pantheon went against each other. In any case, the point is not that, the point is that at least half of the drow gods have goals, personalities and motivations that are simply not compatible with not being at war with Lolth. That's why they drastically retconned Vhaeraun's persona and faith. As I said, currently only Malyk and Eilistraee actively oppose Lolth (and that's why their worship is forbidden in Lolthite cities in MToF, whereas Vhaeraun's is perfectly a-ok. Smh)

 

[Irennan]

The Drow seem to have greater numbers and breed faster then other elves, maybe more then all of them combined.

They breed faster, but not *that* faster (and they have an immensely higher mortality rate than elves to offset that). Also, do we know if this is still true in 5e?

 

[gyor]

They breed faster, but not *that* faster (and they have an immensely higher mortality rate than elves to offset that). Also, do we know if this is still true in 5e?

True, but still their numbers seem to be larger then regular elves.

 

[Irennan]

Of all the elven subraces put together? I doubt that. Even 2x or 3x of the elven birthrate wouldn't offset the stupid high mortality of the drow--due to the Underdark, scarcity of food, infighting, and total absence of a sense of community in an environment that requires a sense of community for survival. Lolth started being a greater goddess towards the end of 3e (and the way WotC made her one truly made 0 sense from a logic PoV. She rose by... spending tons of energy to separate her realm from the Abyss, and by losing tens of thousands of followers? Lol?), and only stayed so for a small part of her existence in D&D. At the beginning of 3e she was *barely* intermediate; before that she was a lesser deity. She really doesn't fit as an equal to the likes of Corellon, Moradin, and so on

 

[Hussar]

From the class description in the PHB, a cleric is, by definition, an adventurer. The priests and clergy of the various religions are, for the most part, not clerics and can't cast spells.

I've never understood this approach to clerics. Ok, you're an adventurer. Cool. That means you're probably wandering around rather than hanging out in a specific temple. Great. But, at the end of the day, you should be a CLERIC. As in a mortal representation of whatever diety (or philosophy depending) that you worship. Which means you should have a boat load of elements that tie you to the setting - holy days, rituals, specific duties, etc.

Why do people want clerics that are just wizards with healing spells? Seems like such a huge waste of some fantastic potential.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've never understood this approach to clerics. Ok, you're an adventurer. Cool. That means you're probably wandering around rather than hanging out in a specific temple. Great. But, at the end of the day, you should be a CLERIC. As in a mortal representation of whatever diety (or philosophy depending) that you worship. Which means you should have a boat load of elements that tie you to the setting - holy days, rituals, specific duties, etc.

Why do people want clerics that are just wizards with healing spells? Seems like such a huge waste of some fantastic potential.

Several reasons:

1) Increasing antipathy towards organised religion amongst parts of the playerbase.

2) The numbers game. It has always been a feature of D&D that characters with class levels made up only a tiny fraction of the population (1 in 10,000 in the 1st edition DMG). There are simply not enough clerics in the world for everyone with a religious occupation to be one.

3) A more historically authentic approach to polytheism. It's clear from the SCAG that the writers where familiar with the religion of Ancient Rome, and where using it as their model for religion in the Forgotten Realms. Thus, worship becomes a personal matter, and temples and shrines only visited when the person wants something in particular from a god. No regular weekly services for people, no preaching, no drive to covert followers of other gods, massive organisations wielding huge amounts of secular power not the norm.

 

[Irennan]

Several reasons:

1) Increasing antipathy towards organised religion amongst parts of the playerbase.

2) The numbers game. It has always been a feature of D&D that characters with class levels made up only a tiny fraction of the population (1 in 10,000 in the 1st edition DMG). There are simply not enough clerics in the world for everyone with a religious occupation to be one.

3) A more historically authentic approach to polytheism. It's clear from the SCAG that the writers where familiar with the religion of Ancient Rome, and where using it as their model for religion in the Forgotten Realms. Thus, worship becomes a personal matter, and temples and shrines only visited when the person wants something in particular from a god. No regular weekly services for people, no preaching, no drive to covert followers of other gods, massive organisations wielding huge amounts of secular power not the norm.

The Realms have entire books dedicated to the ideals, duties, celebrations and such of the various faiths. Ancient religion also had similar things. No one talked about converting other people and the likes, it's more about things like a Lliiran cleric lending their help to a village that is preparing for a celebration.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Realms have entire books dedicated to the ideals, duties, celebrations and such of the various faiths. Ancient religion also had similar things. No one talked about converting other people and the likes, it's more about things like a Lliiran cleric lending their help to a village that is preparing for a celebration.

Which is what I'm saying. The Lliiran cleric would get involved in an annual celebration which would be part-religious and part-secular. They would not have weekly services, strictly prescribed rituals, or elaborate hierarchies. That Christianity-inspired stuff is being quietly retconned away.

 

[Irennan]

Which is what I'm saying. The Lliiran cleric would get involved in an annual celebration which would be part-religious and part-secular. They would not have weekly services, strictly prescribed rituals, or elaborate hierarchies. That Christianity-inspired stuff is being quietly retconned away.

Reading the FR deity books, I see a wide variety of inspiration, *far* from just Christianity (or Christianity at all). There's no need to retcon it, because mass preaching or stuff like that never really was a thing in first place, AFAIK. In any case, regarding the example of the Lliiran cleric, I meant something more along the lines of the cleric that, stopping--during their travels--at a village that is organizing a festivity, feels compelled to lend a hand because it's among the duties/belief of Lliira. Things that put the cleric in the context of the world and of what the cleric of a certain deity are supposed to do.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Forgotten Realms is huge, and communication is limited. Thus, same god will be worshipped in very different ways in different parts of the world. So a very proscriptive book saying "This god dictates that every first Tuesday all clerics of Blingdong must light a red candle whist chanting the seven dictates of the Prophet Nocto or loose their 5th level spells" would be inappropriate. All that is needed is an outline of the basic tennets of the deity, and let the player work out how their cleric worships. (And the DM decide on worship in the current adventuring location). The SCAG already does this, we don't need another book on gods and religion.


The idea that a god must have a standardised religion is very Christian. Which goes back to Gygax and his original idea of clerics as pseudo-Christian crusader-priests.