D&D 5E 5e PHB Warlock Pact Blade Rules aren’t Clearly Stated - What is Your Interpretation

[Boarstorm]

I'll quote the important parts verbatim pp107-108: "You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it" [...] "Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die."

It's their wording of: "It also disappears if you use this feature again" that leaves me hanging for better wording because it sounds like if you try to take another swing then poof it's gone because you are trying to "use this feature again" I assumed with the same weapon.

To be very clear: Summoning the weapon is the feature, not attacking with it.

I know you're "there" as far as understanding, I'm just highlighting the bits that make it so.

 

[Fire Brand]

The PHB actually gives an example of an ancient spear with one eye for a great one pact blade, which at least is versatile and can be used two handed. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be a halberd, etc. Along those lines, I'd expect to be able to use somatics for spell casting with a two handed pole arm... the whole wizard staff argument etc...

Thank you for your reply! Ye
s. The sidebar mentions examples of an Archfey Pact might be a slender blade wrapped in leafy vines. Fiend Pact may be a black metal axe (not specified one or two-handed or versitile used two-handed) with a flame pattern. Pact of the Old one the ancient spear with the gemstone eye in its head.

 

[Fire Brand]

I haven't read the PHB yet so I'm only going from what yo wrote but it seems clear enough.

1. The ability lets you summon a weapon. *poof* You have a weapon.
Using the weapon is not employing the ability, so I don't see why the weapon would revert to vaporware.

2. If it's far from you for 1 min, or you summon another weapon the first weapon disappears.

3. So. Summon a sword and you can whack someone with it all day.

4. Summon a spear and chuck it at someone and you can summon another one to replace it and, as an added bonus stop the foe from throwing it back at you.

5. Summon a dagger and wedge under a door to hold off the hobgolbins and it's only going to let you leg it for 1 min before the doorstop *poofs* away.

6. Best use of a pact blade? Hock it for beer. Just make sure you stagger far enough to avoid the angry barkeep within 1 min of leaving the premesis.

Thanks for your reply! I numbered your points. "4 and 5" great situational RPG examples. "4" would have to be using your next action to make it dissapear so they might be able to throw it back (fun role play) "6" hehehe

 

[Fire Brand]

I'll be honest; if you're the type that likes their rules clear-cut with the exceptions spelled out, 5e may not be the best system for ya. Its strength is spelling out the majority of situations with fairly terse rules, covering all the corner cases is not something it particularly concerns itself with.

Thanks for the reply! You are correct. Specifically though I like good wording so there's no doubt. That's where they fall short. It can still be an economy of words. Just the correct ones. When I get back in tonight I'll try to rewrite the rules as I would like to see it stated so there's no interpretation. that's probably what I should do in the first place. In any event they tout 5e as being easy to understand yet this is a good example of just a couple words and one line in paraentheses that opens it to interpretation. Regardless there's some great RPG in combat ideas coming out of this

 

[Fire Brand]

It seems that (3) might have been better worded along the lines of "If you use this feature again, you can summon a new pact weapon but any existing pact weapon that you have summoned disappears".

Thanks for interpretation! Yes that's what I'm getting at if that's what they mean they should state it. Including saying no dual wielding. Two-handed can be used attack or otherwise.

I've quoted the important parts in a reply. I should do it as a separate post so everyone can reply to it. I was leary of posting everything verbatim because of copyright. Mod could always edit though.

 

[Dausuul]

1) The rules state you can use ONE ACTION to CREATE and CHOOSE the FORM of a MELEE WEAPON. It doesn’t specify BLADE – so is it just a name? I guess so.

Yeah, it's just the pact name. Your weapon doesn't have to be a blade any more than a chain-pact warlock's familiar has to be chained up.

2) ...In your EMPTY HAND (SINGULAR)
a) I take that to mean even if you have TWO empty hands you can only wield a ONE-HANDED weapon - so you can’t use a two-handed, incl. pole arms, and so a versatile weapon can only be used one-handed.

I disagree. It appears in your empty hand, but that doesn't mean you can't then put the other hand on the hilt to wield it. There is no rule saying you need two hands to hold a two-handed weapon, nor should there be; that would be absurd. Medieval weapons are quite light, even the big ones. The listed weight of 6 pounds for a greatsword is just about right for a big sword (claymore, zweihander, etc.). Holding such a weapon in one hand is easy.

3) The real confusing rule: It DISAPPEARS IF YOU USE THIS FEATURE AGAIN. What?
a) If you know that is going to happen then why would you even try to use the weapon again and burn an action trying to use it?

If you are disarmed and your pact blade is thrown off a cliff, you can summon your pact blade and it appears in your hand. The point of this rule is that you can't then go down the the bottom of the cliff, collect the fallen blade, and have two pact blades. When you create a new one, the old one vanishes.

b) Therefore when CAN you use this pact weapon feature again?

I'd have to look it up to be sure, but my recollection is that there is no restriction. If there is no restriction, you can use it whenever you want. You can do it every round if you feel like it. Don't know why you would, though.

 

[Fire Brand]

Thank you very much to everyone at the Oracle of enworld!! Great responses (I never use emoticons but this warrants it)

You see how what should be a simple explanation of a rule in the PHB is in fact open to interpretation (some cool creative ones).

I didn't want to quote the entire rule because of possible copyright. I saw it mentioned before. But maybe it's OK. The Mod could always ask me to edit it.

I'll do what I could have done in the initial post. I may have quoted it in a reply but everyone can quote this easily now:

Pact Boon choice number two is Pact of the Blade (maybe should be Pact of the Weapon) It confused me because 4e Essentials has a Pact blade instrument which not everyone would know but that's what I was expecting to read.


The important 5e PHB parts verbatim pp107-108: (I highlighted)

"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it"

[...]

"Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again(?) (if they mean you can't wield two weapons at the same time they should say that imho), if you dismiss the weapon (no action required) (I replied to a post where I said you needed an action but I was wrong-FB), or if you die."

Sidebar examples verbatim: "Pact of the Blade. If your patron is the Archfey, your weapon might be a slender blade wrapped in leafy vines. If you serve the Fiend, your weapon could be an axe (one or two-handed?) made of black metal and adorned with decorative flames. If your patron is the Great Old One, your weapon might be an ancient-looking spear (I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder! -FB), with a gemstone embedded in its head, carved to look like a terrible unblinking eye."

 

[Snapdragyn]

I think the reason they avoided saying 'you can not dual wield' is because of this:

1) Hold a normal merchant-purchased (or dead body looted, or whatever) weapon in one hand,
2) Use your class ability to summon your pact weapon in the other hand,
3) Dual wield to your heart's content.

 

[Fire Brand]

I hope the quoting is working correctly.

Yeah, it's just the pact name. Your weapon doesn't have to be a blade any more than a chain-pact warlock's familiar has to be chained up.

I disagree. It appears in your empty hand, but that doesn't mean you can't then put the other hand on the hilt to wield it. There is no rule saying you need two hands to hold a two-handed weapon, nor should there be; that would be absurd. Medieval weapons are quite light, even the big ones. The listed weight of 6 pounds for a greatsword is just about right for a big sword (claymore, zweihander, etc.). Holding such a weapon in one hand is easy.

Oh yeah for sure holding it. I was thinking in terms of attackng with it in which case a two-handed property on the Weapons table does have to be wielded two-handed. Their wording of empty hand. Could be followed by you can wield a weapon one or two-handed.

If you are disarmed and your pact blade is thrown off a cliff, you can summon your pact blade and it appears in your hand. The point of this rule is that you can't then go down the the bottom of the cliff, collect the fallen blade, and have two pact blades. When you create a new one, the old one vanishes.

Great example!

I'd have to look it up to be sure, but my recollection is that there is no restriction. If there is no restriction, you can use it whenever you want. You can do it every round if you feel like it. Don't know why you would, though.

What do you mean by "You can do it every round if you feel like it. Don't know why you would, though."? Do you mean dismiss it?

Thank you all!

 

[Fire Brand]

I think the reason they avoided saying 'you can not dual wield' is because of this:

1) Hold a normal merchant-purchased (or dead body looted, or whatever) weapon in one hand,
2) Use your class ability to summon your pact weapon in the other hand,
3) Dual wield to your heart's content.

oh yes for sure. I didn't think you could dual wield. It was the idea if you could use two-handed or versatile weapons or not. But someone (gosh I can't recall whom my apologies) in an earlier reply reminded me that a PHB sidebar mentioned a spear example. I guess my point is they should specify that up front two-handed or not. Because as we can see we're left to interpreting it.

The big thing for me though was you have to dismiss it if you use this feature again wording. They needed to say no dual welding if that's what they meant by it.

Regardless there's some good RPG examples that have popped up here. If that's what WotC wants then they succeeded in a poorly worded rule wierd way lol