D&D 5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

[Savage Wombat]

In all seriousness, my problem with the "I'm gonna kill Thor" concept is that I don't think that most DMs could actually think up the defenses that a creature of godlike intellect and creative power would logically have. Effectively, the DM is just letting your overpowered character kill the gods because you wanted to.

 

[Essenti]

In all seriousness, my problem with the "I'm gonna kill Thor" concept is that I don't think that most DMs could actually think up the defenses that a creature of godlike intellect and creative power would logically have. Effectively, the DM is just letting your overpowered character kill the gods because you wanted to.

Ultimately, though, doesn't this sentiment ring true for an evil wizard or ruthless overlord... The DM would have to actually BE an evil wizard or ruthless overlord to accurately model their thought patterns and creative defenses. At every level the DM is just letting the overpowered characters kill X and take its stuff.

While I may actually be a ruthless evil wizard overlord in real life(tm), does that mean I am in no way qualified to pretend that I am the mighty thunder-god, Thor? Perhaps I've been doing it wrong all this time, but I thought we were playing a game of make-believe, with some dice rolling and crazy random tables thrown in!

 

[Savage Wombat]

Ultimately, though, doesn't this sentiment ring true for an evil wizard or ruthless overlord... The DM would have to actually BE an evil wizard or ruthless overlord to accurately model their thought patterns and creative defenses. At every level the DM is just letting the overpowered characters kill X and take its stuff.

No, I don't think so. The evil wizard or ruthless overlord is still a human being with a human mind and motivations. Most DMs stretch at having to figure out what a mind flayer wants or plans for.

To accurately roleplay what it would be like for a PC to challenge a god, you'd have to take into account stratagems like "What if the god tries to murder me as an infant by teleporting poisonous snakes into my crib?" and not just "Thor's Hammer does 186 points of damage, but I'm immune to electricity, so I can take three rounds of that before needing a Heal spell."

All I'm saying is that plenty of people brag about characters that have killed gods, and I've never seen anyone that did it other than walking up to said god and saying "Throw down, biatch."

The Lady of Pain has the right approach - even think about crossing her, and you end up in an extradimensional maze, no save. That's what fighting a god should be like. If you can overcome that, maybe you'll deserve the win.

 

[Essenti]

<snip>
All I'm saying is that plenty of people brag about characters that have killed gods, and I've never seen anyone that did it other than walking up to said god and saying "Throw down, biatch."
<snip>

I completely read you on this point and what you described definitely makes for quite a boring story regardless if its a mighty god or a lowly kobold the PCs are engaging. Most adventuring stories would be TPKs straight off the bat if the DM was half as concerned for the welfare of the monsters as the monsters themselves would be.

At no point are we able to say with certainty that we are accurately portraying the behavior of even the lowly kobold--because they don't exist as far as I know--we just keep going with it as if they could exist and that we are simulating their imagined behavior appropriately. Perhaps some DMs aren't particularly interesting or creative with it but it doesn't make it wrong to play the game in the way you mentioned. Maybe gods give too little heed to the doings of mortals in their make-believe world, who knows. It's all fantasy anyway.

Going after a god head on isn't the type of play I would enjoy as a PC, but clearly some people must or they wouldn't have felt the need to tell you about it. Just nod your head and smile about their imagined triumph, they won D&D, good for them!

As for having stats for gods... You don't have to use them just because they are there. There is nothing preventing the designers from devoting several pages on some things that that god might have in place to protect themselves. It's not impossible to fathom the mind of an imagined god for the purpose of having fun in a game of make-believe. The point of playing the game is all about having fun with the concept of "what if." How accurately you can simulate a god is mostly academic, unless you know a few who might be willing to do some write-ups for us

 

[Hassassin]

As for having stats for gods... You don't have to use them just because they are there. There is nothing preventing the designers from devoting several pages on some things that that god might have in place to protect themselves.

I find it annoying when an otherwise good book wastes a lot of pages statting deities, like the 3e Faiths and Pantheons. I doubt many of its buyers used them even once. IMO the pages would have been better used on high level priests than the gods themselves. Those I would have used.

 

[Teataine]

I'll tell you why there shouldn't be (official) stats for the Lady of Pain.

Because then there is an official version.

And it becomes harder to decide whether in your game the Lady is just a bunch of rats hiding under some robes, a puppet of the Dabus, a truly unkillable meta-power, or just a mook with some dangerous shadow & blade powers.

Make the Lady of Pain in your game whatever you want her to be.

But don't ever, ever publish her stats in any official capacity.

 

[Yora]

There has not been any real planescape material been published since 1998, and probably won't ever again. ^^

 

[avin]

The only way I would ever, ever take part in a Planescape game is with a killable Lady of Pain. The presence of that character utterly ruins that setting for me.

She's the reason angels don't kill demons on Sigil, and so on.

D&D ought to be a game of gonzo heroism.

I smell a troll...

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I smell a troll...

Does this witch, I mean troll, care about the D&D Game and the D&D Worlds?

 

[Essenti]

I find it annoying when an otherwise good book wastes a lot of pages statting deities, like the 3e Faiths and Pantheons. I doubt many of its buyers used them even once. IMO the pages would have been better used on high level priests than the gods themselves. Those I would have used.

Although I do share much of your opinion on this, I have no idea whether or not those stats have been put to use. I agree that having the pages devoted to other aspects of religion would see more use from me too. Gods are not singular bodied entities in my stories, and PCs mostly focus on taking out their minions or avatars, and not the gods themselves. But that doesn't mean I think everyone should play the game the same as I do. A book about deities is about the best place to stat them up for those who want such things.

I'll tell you why there shouldn't be (official) stats for the Lady of Pain.

Because then there is an official version.

And it becomes harder to decide whether in your game the Lady is just a bunch of rats hiding under some robes, a puppet of the Dabus, a truly unkillable meta-power, or just a mook with some dangerous shadow & blade powers.

Make the Lady of Pain in your game whatever you want her to be.

But don't ever, ever publish her stats in any official capacity.

This is a very good reason not to stat up a deity, because it can stifle creativity. Then again, the same could be said about every monster in the manual too. I don't necessarily use monsters as they are printed in the monster manual, either, for the very same reason. I like to put in my own twists and turns to keep players guessing and I like flavoring creatures to fit my own worlds.

For me it doesn't matter if their is an official version of the Lady of Pain or not. That said, I liked all the ideas you mentioned about what she could be! I would definitely be down with having sections devoted to various things that a deity could be. In other words, a bunch of hooks to kick start imagination rather than a single entry devoted to "this is what the Lady of Pain is."