D&D 5E 5e Surprise and Hiding Rules Interpretation

[BigZebra]

Being hidden and surprise are two different things.
You can surprise someone, without being hidden.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

There is nothing in the surprise rules that says it requires hiding. The rules give a way to be unnoticed, but never say "this is the only way to be not noticed as a threat", which you seem to be reading into those rules.

That isn't RAW, that is inventing a house rule.

The rules clearly say "notice a threat". Threat, not being a defined game term, falls back on the plain English meaning.

A person standing next to you that looks like an orchestra member with no weapons neither hiding, nor are they a "threat you noticed", in plain English.

They did not say "notice an opponent", and replacing one word with another is not reading the rules as written.

How the DM adjudicates them pulling that off is not detailed in those rules right there. But there are plenty of rules on how disguise works in 5e.

Is is good that you are now claiming that the word "threat" means "opponent", because we can now be clear why you are misreading the rules as written.

...

But to be clear, if Bob had zero plan to engage at that moment (he was going to attack in 1 minute when the clock strikes 12), didn't see Alice, and Alice attacked, would Charlie be surprised? What if he beat Alice's stealth check?

If Bob saw Alice, but intended to keep his cover, would Charlie be surprised?

If Bob changed his mind after combat began, does Charlie retroactively become unsurprised?

You want to cover edge cases.

...

My point is, the rules are really clear. If you notice a threat, you aren't surprised on the first turn of combat. If you don't notice a threat, you are surprised on the first turn of combat.

If someone is hidden from you, you don't notice them. If you don't notice them, you don't know they are a threat. This is not the only way to not notice a threat; there are both disguise methods and deception methods, for example. They are covered in the rules for disguise and deception.

Also if you take a look at this question from the Sage Advice compendium, I think that lends some guidance as well:

Surprise rules work for two opposing sides. What happens with surprise when a third group of combatants sneaks up, hidden from the melee, and ambushes?
The surprise rule is relevant only when a combat is starting. Any ambushes during the fight use the rules for Dexterity (Stealth) checks.

What this says to me is this: when you're determining surprise for an ambush you would use Stealth checks (Hiding), and if you're determining what happens in an ambush after the start of combat, you still use Stealth check (hiding), even though you're not using the surprise mechanic.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Being hidden and surprise are two different things.
You can surprise someone, without being hidden.

If you've got an argument from the text, I'm all ears. Otherwise, you do you.

 

[Flamestrike]

You're written a lot to respond to, so I'll take it in chunks. I'm uncertain that we have any real disagreement on this first point. Your allies clearly notice you, and that is clearly not enough for surprise where opponents must notice a threat. So, I stand with my previous statement : whenever opponents notice you "as a threat", your allies meeting the same criteria notice you as a threat as well. I don't think there's a reason to call that out more emphatically.

But, it is the case that non-hidden opponents are automatically noticed and do make your entire side of the combat "immune" to surprise. We make the case for that in this FAQ, which asks the same question in a different way:

• Does all of one side of an impending combat need to hide to have surprise? Yes. If even one opponent (one threat) is noticed by a member of the opposing side, then that creature is not surprised. All opposing creatures will perceive the presence of an unhidden party member as a threat and will therefore not be surprised. Since surprise is determined prior to the DM establishing the location of the characters and monsters, characters who do not declare they are hiding are assumed to have their presence perceived by their opponents in determining who is surprised.

Would you be surprised if you were sitting down to dinner with your Mum or someone you implicitly trusted, and in the middle of a pleasant chat about the weather she suddenly tried to stab you in the face with a kitchen knife?

If the answer to that question is 'Yes' then you agree it is possible to be surprised when combat starts (your Mum tries to stab you in the face) and you're unaware of a hostile threat when the aforementioned face stabbing happens.

It's a judgement call (generally most creatures are wary - particularly in dungeon environments) but its useful when a trusted ally or fellow PC (unknowingly dominated) or a Doppelganger or similar suddenly attacks.

Instead of Stealth v Perception, run it as Deception v Insight.

If you want RAW for that, it's under 'the DM is always right and can make rulings whenever they want'.

 

[NotAYakk]

This is the rules you want to play by:

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice any opposing creature is surprised at the start of the encounter.

These are the rules as written:

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

I agree that if you rewrite the rules as written to what you pretend they say, you have a case.

Without that rewrite, you aren't using the rules as written.

That is fine, but don't pretend you are playing RAW. You are restricting surprise by replacing a word in the rules.

Your rules are consistent with themselves, and I hope they make you enjoy the game. Just don't pretend your specific reinterpretation of the rules is what the rules must be read as.

 

[BigZebra]

If you've got an argument from the text, I'm all ears. Otherwise, you do you.

They are two orthogonal concepts.

Surprise is binary, between two sides. Either you are surprised or not. You can't be surprised by some and not by others.
Whether somebody is hidden is not binary. Some can be hidden, others might not.

It is not a requirement that all memebers of a party are hiding, for a surprise to happen.

If my fighter is talking to an orc, I am not hidding. He can see me. Meanwhile, my fellow rogue buddie, is sneaking up on the orc from behind. The rogue's stealth check succeeds, i.e. the orc is now surprised. Initiatives are rolled. The rogue has been hiding, so the rogue has advantage. My fighter has not been hiding, so he has no advantage. And the orc is surprised, and gets no turn on the first round.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Would you be surprised if you were sitting down to dinner with your Mum or someone you implicitly trusted, and in the middle of a pleasant chat about the weather she suddenly tried to stab you in the face with a kitchen knife?

If the answer to that question is 'Yes' then you agree it is possible to be surprised when combat starts (your Mum tries to stab you in the face) and you're unaware of a hostile threat when the aforementioned face stabbing happens.

It's a judgement call (generally most creatures are wary - particularly in dungeon environments) but its useful when a trusted ally or fellow PC (unknowingly dominated) or a Doppelganger or similar suddenly attacks.

Instead of Stealth v Perception, run it as Deception v Insight.

If you want RAW for that, it's under 'the DM is always right and can make rulings whenever they want'.

I would be very surprised, since my Mom is dead, buried 6ft. under, and would definitely be in hiding.

I don't have the same conception of the game as you do, or the purpose of the rules. The rules are there to provide fairness to the players, and to keep the balance of power between the characters and the monsters to make combat the right level of difficultly to keep the game fun. The rules are not there to simulate how the laws of nature work in the real world applied to a fantasy world. The rules give a play-tested mechanic, and it's the job of the DM to narrate the results they give in a way that makes sense within the fantasy world.

That the rules empower the DM to make their own rules, that doesn't mean that there isn't an interpretation of the rules that corresponds to what the designers had in mind and what they play-tested when the game was being created. And if you're running a Rules as Written campaign, or something fairly close to that, that's exactly what you end up doing - coming up with your own interpretation of those rules that is hopefully consistent.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

They are two orthogonal concepts.

Surprise is binary, between two sides. Either you are surprised or not. You can't be surprised by some and not by others.
Whether somebody is hidden is not binary. Some can be hidden, others might not.

It is not a requirement that all memebers of a party are hiding, for a surprise to happen.

If my fighter is talking to an orc, I am not hidding. He can see me. Meanwhile, my fellow rogue buddie, is sneaking up on the orc from behind. The rogue's stealth check succeeds, i.e. the orc is now surprised. Initiatives are rolled. The rogue has been hiding, so the rogue has advantage. My fighter has not been hiding, so he has no advantage. And the orc is surprised, and gets no turn on the first round.

This is an argument from first principles and not an argument from the text of the rules. Basically, you're just saying : "this is what I like." Ok, great, you do you.

But from the rules as written, it is a requirement for all members of one side of an ambush (the only case where the surprise rules apply) to be in hiding in order to have any chance of surprising anyone on the opposing side. As to my arguments from the text, I've presented them in previous replies, so you can read them there.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

If anyone who is uncertain about how the designers of the game felt that combat should start want to hear from a designer, check out this Sage Advice video by Jeremy Crawford, the lead designer of 5e. He makes it clear that in the "surprise" dagger attack situation, that's an initiative roll (not surprise). He also makes it clear that surprise is meant for an ambush, and that it's resolved with Stealth checks. Take a listen

Roll for Initiative! The ins and outs of beginning combat - w/ Jeremy Crawford

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

 

[BigZebra]

If anyone who is uncertain about how the designers of the game felt that combat should start want to hear from a designer, check out this Sage Advice video by Jeremy Crawford, the lead designer of 5e. He makes it clear that in the "surprise" dagger attack situation, that's an initiative roll (not surprise). He also makes it clear that surprise is meant for an ambush, and that it's resolved with Stealth checks. Take a listen

Roll for Initiative! The ins and outs of beginning combat - w/ Jeremy Crawford

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

Yup. I listened to that as well. I also read the Sage Compendium, and you are correct that "you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares". So it seems to support your case. He also does mention though, that stealth in general is in the DM's hands. I would have like it a bit better exlapined in PHB though.

I guess I am more on the line of:

Things You Didn’t Know About D&D 5E: The Surprise Round

One of the most commonly misunderstood mechanics in Dungeons & Dragons is surprise. Many players, either because they came from previous editions or learned from someone who had, believe that t…

dmsworkshop.com

But, I will have to agree that your version is more supported by the rules.