D&D 5E (2014) 5e Surprise and Hiding Rules Interpretation

[Jon Gilliam]

Yes it does.

While the action is called 'Hide' it relates to hiding and moving silently (and Stealth covers both as well).

For example, an invisible Rogue (not hidden) who wants to move silently, first needs to take the Hide action (while invisible, and likely as a bonus action if he's 2nd level or higher and has cunning action). Once he does that, he can move silently (while hidden) wherever he wants to, and remains hidden until he gives away his position, or a nearby creature uses the Search action to find him. His location is unknown.

If he just moves (without first taking the Hide action) then nearby creatures can track him (with sound, and other visual clues) as he moves just fine (although he is still invisible). He can Hide (as an action) at the end of that movement, but enemies will have a good idea of where he is (or at the very least what direction he was headed when he was moving while invisible but not hidden).

I think your comment is trailing some of my subsequent replies, where I and my group have come back around to the idea that "Being Stealthy" and "Hiding" are the same thing. Check out my intervening comments if interested, and again I think you for your insights.

 

[Flamestrike]

And taking into account the same considerations, an update to the definition:

• Definition of "Being Stealthy" : Being stealthy represents an attempt to hide when your opponents are either distracted or cannot perceive you clearly, decided by the DM using the same criteria as for deciding appropriate circumstances for hiding.

Also, I'm thinking that if an ally took the Help action to distract an opponent, it would be much more likely that you could successfully hide from them as your retreat.

You really dont need any of these convoluted rules. The rules are clear as is, and designed to be DM dependent.

''If you want to Hide, you need to first be unseen (or unable to be seen clearly -DMs call) and then succeed in a Stealth check (via the Hide action). If successful, you remain hidden until you reveal yourself, cease being unseen or someone finds you via the Search action and a Perception check over your Stealth check result.''

That above paragraph sums up literally 99 percent of what you're saying above.

 

[NotAYakk]

I agree with you. But actually, I think when the rules talking about "noticing a threat" in combat that it is meant to also refer to non-threatening allies. In the Hiding side-box PHB p. 177 it says : "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." (emphasis added).

So I believe that all cases where the wording "noticing a threat" is used in the rules, it's meant to mean that opponents "notice a threat" and allies just "notice." I'll think about making that more explicit, but I haven't heard from any players who found that ambiguous as yet.

So, you don't notice a threat if you don't think the creature is threatening.

Or, to be very, very clear: there simply being non-hidden creatures near you doesn't make you immune to surprise.

Those non-hidden creatures can be your allies, neutral parties you don't think are going to be fighting you. If they are creatures you suspect are about to attack you, they do make you immune to surprise.

An assassin masquerading as a member of an orchestra can't surprise because they aren't hidden.

You have surprise backwards. Assassin's don't surprise, it is the other side that is surprised.

If they did not notice a threat, they are surprised.

So we have alice and bob, both assassins.

Alice is hiding, invisible. Bob is disguised as a member of the orchestra, and has Truesight up, so can see Alice. Bob's disguise is perfect, and Charlie has no idea that Bob is an assassin.

We have charlie, their victim. Alice starts combat.

Is Charlie immune to surprise?

Bob is clearly not surprised. Bob can see Alice. Bob can see charlie.

Charlie cannot see Alice. Bob has successfully disguised himself, so does not appear to be a threat.

Does the fact that Bob is disguised suddenly prevent Charlie from being surprised? If Bob does nothing, can Charlie be surprised? If initiative goes Alice, Charlie, Bob, and Bob hasn't acted, is Charlie surprised on his turn? If Bob then acts, does Charlie retroactively get to act?

Does removing Bob suddenly make Charlie surprised?!

If Bob wins initiative, and attacks, does Charlie suddenly become not-surprised?

Can I initiate surprise by deceiving an adjacent opponent into believing I'm actually an ally and then suddenly attacking? No, since surprise requires hiding and you would not be hidden from your opponent because they could notice that your attack was coming. This would be an initiative roll, but if your opponent who had been successfully deceived previously (Insight vs Deception check) wins initiative, they may choose to do nothing to counter your attack on their turn if they momentarily believe the initiation of your action is due to something else other than commencing an attack.

Surprise is not something you do.

Surprise is something that happens to you.

If you notice a threat (a potentially hostile person) and are ready for combat, you aren't surprised. If you don't notice a threat, and combat starts, you are surprised.

The easiest way for someone to "not notice a threat" is for that threat to be hidden. But that isn't the only way.

The existence of a 5th column spy in the PC's party doesn't suddenly make them immune to surprise from ambusing enemies. And those ambushing enemies do not suddenly make the 5th column spy more surprising.

The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

Bob, disguised as a member of the orchestra, is not a threat that Charlie notices.

Charlie notices Bob, as an orchestra player, but not that Bob is a threat.

So Bob's existence does not prevent Charlie from being surprised.

From this, combat starts with Charlie surprised.

Bob gets to roll initiative like everyone else, RAW. Combat has already started, so what Bob does does not change if Charlie is surprised.

To notice someone is not the same as notice a threat: the rules use different terms, and the word threat matters. You notice the other PCs, you notice the orchestra players. Noticing a threat means you have to both notice someone, and realize they are a threat.

A successful disguise (as something appropriate) or deception of peaceful intentions makes someone not a threat.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

You really dont need any of these convoluted rules. The rules are clear as is, and designed to be DM dependent.

''If you want to Hide, you need to first be unseen (or unable to be seen clearly -DMs call) and then succeed in a Stealth check (via the Hide action). If successful, you remain hidden until you reveal yourself, cease being unseen or someone finds you via the Search action and a Perception check over your Stealth check result.''

That above paragraph sums up literally 99 percent of what you're saying above.

I don't disagree - my group has played together for 7 years under just that sort of an understanding. But my players a bit more interested in making advantage of edge-cases, and after having experienced a lot of them over our years of play together, we've decided to batten down our understanding of that remaining 1% by returning to the rules as written and poking at all those edge cases.

Our project may not be yours, although I think your contributions to it here have been most helpful.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

So, you don't notice a threat if you don't think the creature is threatening.

Or, to be very, very clear: there simply being non-hidden creatures near you doesn't make you immune to surprise.

Those non-hidden creatures can be your allies, neutral parties you don't think are going to be fighting you. If they are creatures you suspect are about to attack you, they do make you immune to surprise.

You're written a lot to respond to, so I'll take it in chunks. I'm uncertain that we have any real disagreement on this first point. Your allies clearly notice you, and that is clearly not enough for surprise where opponents must notice a threat. So, I stand with my previous statement : whenever opponents notice you "as a threat", your allies meeting the same criteria notice you as a threat as well. I don't think there's a reason to call that out more emphatically.

But, it is the case that non-hidden opponents are automatically noticed and do make your entire side of the combat "immune" to surprise. We make the case for that in this FAQ, which asks the same question in a different way:

• Does all of one side of an impending combat need to hide to have surprise? Yes. If even one opponent (one threat) is noticed by a member of the opposing side, then that creature is not surprised. All opposing creatures will perceive the presence of an unhidden party member as a threat and will therefore not be surprised. Since surprise is determined prior to the DM establishing the location of the characters and monsters, characters who do not declare they are hiding are assumed to have their presence perceived by their opponents in determining who is surprised.

 

[NotAYakk]

You're written a lot to respond to, so I'll take it in chunks. I'm uncertain that we have any real disagreement on this first point. Your allies clearly notice you, and that is clearly not enough for surprise where opponents must notice a threat. So, I stand with my previous statement : whenever opponents notice you "as a threat", your allies meeting the same criteria notice you as a threat as well. I don't think there's a reason to call that out more emphatically.

If noticing a creature makes you not-surprised, then any party of more than 1 is immune to surprise.

The noticed creature has to be a threat to make you immune to surprise.

You keep on quoting rules that say "threat" and ignoring that word.

Notice a threat is not notice a creature.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

You have surprise backwards. Assassin's don't surprise, it is the other side that is surprised.

If they did not notice a threat, they are surprised.

So we have alice and bob, both assassins.

Alice is hiding, invisible. Bob is disguised as a member of the orchestra, and has Truesight up, so can see Alice. Bob's disguise is perfect, and Charlie has no idea that Bob is an assassin.

We have charlie, their victim. Alice starts combat.

Is Charlie immune to surprise?

Bob is clearly not surprised. Bob can see Alice. Bob can see charlie.

Charlie cannot see Alice. Bob has successfully disguised himself, so does not appear to be a threat.

Does the fact that Bob is disguised suddenly prevent Charlie from being surprised? If Bob does nothing, can Charlie be surprised? If initiative goes Alice, Charlie, Bob, and Bob hasn't acted, is Charlie surprised on his turn? If Bob then acts, does Charlie retroactively get to act?

Does removing Bob suddenly make Charlie surprised?!

If Bob wins initiative, and attacks, does Charlie suddenly become not-surprised?

The 5e concept of surprise springs from the idea of an ambush : something that the party decides to do together in unison. For example, PHB p. 189 : "A band of adventures sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them." I'm well aware that surprise is something experienced by the target, and if you're just pointing out inexact language used in my discussion, that's fine. I thought it was clear what I was saying : if one side has an unhidden member at the start of combat (assassin or not), the party has no chance of surprising any of their opponents.

In your scenario, Alice is setup fine. Bob probably is hidden also, as he's taking advantage of an edge case to hide among a crowd, although the DM would decide that (see errata for the PHB under Hiding where the DM decides circumstance appropriate for hiding). However, Bob does not spoil surprise (see if you like that language) because he is disguised, but rather because he is hidden due to Charlie being (at the DM's discretion) distracted by all of the other orchestra member's around him, covered by the Hiding side-bar on p. 177 of the PHB:

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

If Bob is only disguised but not hidden, surprise is spoiled because the rules provide no mechanism for resolving surprise on anything other than passive Perception versus Stealth. You're making up rules on the spot (which can be fine, but it's not rules as written) if you're deciding surprise based on Insight versus Deception, or whatever other check might be appropriate to Bob's disguise.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

If noticing a creature makes you not-surprised, then any party of more than 1 is immune to surprise.

The noticed creature has to be a threat to make you immune to surprise.

You keep on quoting rules that say "threat" and ignoring that word.

Notice a threat is not notice a creature.

Maybe we do have a disagreement. I think the right interpretation of the rules as written is that "noticing a threat" is absolutely meant to be read exactly the same as "noticing an opponent", regardless of what the creature doing the noticing believes about that opponent. We addressed our reasons for believing that in the following FAQs:

• Can I initiate surprise by deceiving an adjacent opponent into believing I'm actually an ally and then suddenly attacking? No, since surprise requires hiding and you would not be hidden from your opponent because they could notice that your attack was coming. This would be an initiative roll, but if your opponent who had been successfully deceived previously (Insight vs Deception check) wins initiative, they may choose to do nothing to counter your attack on their turn if they momentarily believe the initiation of your action is due to something else other than commencing an attack.
• Can I initiate surprise by deceiving an adjacent opponent into believing I'm actually an ally and concealing my dagger thrust as I attack? No, because you would have to be hidden to initiate surprise, and if you were able to conceal your attack this way for surprise purposes, you would in effect be hiding in plain sight, which is a special ability of 10th level rangers. Per the rules, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, and without any special ability or trait indicating otherwise, any concealment of your thrust during attack is included in your bonuses and modifiers on your to hit roll. Note that even the Assassin rogue archetype's "Assassinate" ability doesn't automatically assume you have surprised a creature (since it provides an additional benefit if that is the case), and it doesn't require a Stealth check. Similarly, the rogue's "Sneak Attack" ability doesn't presume you have surprised the target, only that you have advantage on the attack roll.

 

[NotAYakk]

There is nothing in the surprise rules that says it requires hiding. The rules give a way to be unnoticed, but never say "this is the only way to be not noticed as a threat", which you seem to be reading into those rules.

I think the right interpretation of the rules as written is that "noticing a threat" is absolutely meant to be read exactly the same as "noticing an opponent"

That isn't RAW, that is inventing a house rule.

The rules clearly say "notice a threat". Threat, not being a defined game term, falls back on the plain English meaning.

A person standing next to you that looks like an orchestra member with no weapons neither hiding, nor are they a "threat you noticed", in plain English.

They did not say "notice an opponent", and replacing one word with another is not reading the rules as written.

How the DM adjudicates them pulling that off is not detailed in those rules right there. But there are plenty of rules on how disguise works in 5e.

Is is good that you are now claiming that the word "threat" means "opponent", because we can now be clear why you are misreading the rules as written.

...

But to be clear, if Bob had zero plan to engage at that moment (he was going to attack in 1 minute when the clock strikes 12), didn't see Alice, and Alice attacked, would Charlie be surprised? What if he beat Alice's stealth check?

If Bob saw Alice, but intended to keep his cover, would Charlie be surprised?

If Bob changed his mind after combat began, does Charlie retroactively become unsurprised?

You want to cover edge cases.

...

My point is, the rules are really clear. If you notice a threat, you aren't surprised on the first turn of combat. If you don't notice a threat, you are surprised on the first turn of combat.

If someone is hidden from you, you don't notice them. If you don't notice them, you don't know they are a threat. This is not the only way to not notice a threat; there are both disguise methods and deception methods, for example. They are covered in the rules for disguise and deception.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

There is nothing in the surprise rules that says it requires hiding. The rules give a way to be unnoticed, but never say "this is the only way to be not noticed as a threat", which you seem to be reading into those rules.

That isn't RAW, that is inventing a house rule.

The rules clearly say "notice a threat". Threat, not being a defined game term, falls back on the plain English meaning.

A person standing next to you that looks like an orchestra member with no weapons neither hiding, nor are they a "threat you noticed", in plain English.

They did not say "notice an opponent", and replacing one word with another is not reading the rules as written.

How the DM adjudicates them pulling that off is not detailed in those rules right there. But there are plenty of rules on how disguise works in 5e.

Is is good that you are now claiming that the word "threat" means "opponent", because we can now be clear why you are misreading the rules as written.

...

But to be clear, if Bob had zero plan to engage at that moment (he was going to attack in 1 minute when the clock strikes 12), didn't see Alice, and Alice attacked, would Charlie be surprised? What if he beat Alice's stealth check?

If Bob saw Alice, but intended to keep his cover, would Charlie be surprised?

If Bob changed his mind after combat began, does Charlie retroactively become unsurprised?

You want to cover edge cases.

...

My point is, the rules are really clear. If you notice a threat, you aren't surprised on the first turn of combat. If you don't notice a threat, you are surprised on the first turn of combat.

If someone is hidden from you, you don't notice them. If you don't notice them, you don't know they are a threat. This is not the only way to not notice a threat; there are both disguise methods and deception methods, for example. They are covered in the rules for disguise and deception.

I simply disagree with your interpretation of RAW - the surprise rules do in fact say that surprise requires hiding. The rules on p. 189 say that the DM determines who might be surprised, not that they decide who might be surprised. And it follows that up with the procedure that the DM is to use to determine surprise, comparing "the Dexterity (Stealth) check of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."

Compare that to what the rules say (in the errata) about hiding: “The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.”

Surprise is side-based for determining threat. It doesn't matter if someone you were convinced was your ally comes at you with a knife - you notice the threat as it happens, that opponent isn't hidden, and you aren't surprised (as per the mechanic).