D&D 5E 5e Surprise and Hiding Rules Interpretation

[Neonchameleon]

As to why player's decide pre-combat if they will be hiding, that's because players should have autonomy over their character's actions.

Which is why you RP the lead up to the fight in most cases rather than drop them in right at the start of the fight. It's not "do you hide", it's "how are you approaching this".

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Repeating the rule doesn't answer the "why" question about the rule being that way, especially when it cuts off entire avenues of play and planning. Repeating the FAQ also doesn't answer the "why" question - it just says it's what you've decided without giving a justification as to why your world works that way.

(Saying that that's what you think the 5e designers intended admittedly does even if I think if they'd meant that they'd have said that.)

I'm not telling you what your interpretation of the rules should be, I'm simply looking to bring in other opinions to consider to influence ours.
Nothing says you have to play D&D by the Rules as Written, even the Rules as Written. You do you.

The justification for why the world works as it does comes when the DM narrates the mechanics in play. You narrate the "surprise" attack by the assassin as happening in a very surprising way, adding special emphasis on that if they're engaging their "Assassinate" ability as per p. 97 in the PHB, even though you don't engage the mechanic laid out for surprise on p. 189 of the PHB, which is intended for ambushes at the start of a combat.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Which is why you RP the lead up to the fight in most cases rather than drop them in right at the start of the fight. It's not "do you hide", it's "how are you approaching this".

I'm sorry, that's just not Rules as Written. You drop them in if you're following RAW. Re-read the side-box "Combat Step by Step" on p.189 of the PHB, particularly Step 2:

COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP

1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers’ marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are–how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants’ turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.

(PHB p. 189) emphasis added on first sentence of the 2nd bullet

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm not telling you what your interpretation of the rules should be, I'm simply looking to bring in other opinions to consider to influence ours.
Nothing says you have to play D&D by the Rules as Written, even the Rules as Written. You do you.

I assumed that these were your house rules given the way it opened. Show me where in the rules it says it is impossible to surprise someone by disguising yourself. I don't believe it ever does -and in that case what you are doing simply is not the rules as written - and when your very first point is a rule that appears to be on top of the RAW and your very first FAQ is to justify what I believe is your divergence from the RAW I'm sure that you can see why I thought this was intended to be a set of house rules I was commenting on.

Now pointing out that it's unlikely is fair. It is unlikely and hard to pull off. But show me where it says it is impossible (and no, a disguise into someone that the target would let near them isn't at all the same as hiding in plain sight - and is only the first step in the job; you then have to pull it off).[/QUOTE]

 

[Flamestrike]

Here's the definition of Stealth from the PHB (emphasis added): .

Awesome but not relevant. You cant attempt the Hide action without first making yourself unseen. If you're adjacent to a creature and it's watching you, you cant Hide on your turn.

''You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly.'' That's in the PHB.

A creature cant take the Hide action when a creature can see it clearly. As an adjacent creature, with a readied action to attack that wanna-be hider, clearly can clearly do.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Awesome but not relevant. You cant attempt the Hide action without first making yourself unseen. If you're adjacent to a creature and it's watching you, you cant Hide on your turn.

''You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly.'' That's in the PHB.

A creature cant take the Hide action when a creature can see it clearly. As an adjacent creature, with a readied action to attack that wanna-be hider, clearly can clearly do.

It's true that you can't take the "Hide" action, but that doesn't mean you can't be Stealthy. Even if you're in plain sight, maybe you can "slip away without being noticed" as per the Stealth definition. Circumstances must be such that the character can do that, but in the heat of combat there's a lot of distraction, and maybe the lighting is dim, etc. There's precedent for that in the side-box on Hiding (PHB p. 177) : "under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted."

We've going back and forth on this during discussions among my group, and we think it boils down to this question?

Let's say a non-adjacent monster has an action prepared to do a ranged attack against any opponent that moves, and that you are currently unhidden and visible to that monster. Let's say you first tell the DM you'd like to be Stealthy, the DM determines the circumstances are appropriate for stealth and calls for a Stealth check, and then you start to move to a hiding place. So, the question is whether in this edge case the stealthy character would trigger a prepared action.

The argument for it is that the definition of Stealth specifically mentions "slipping away without being noticed". But, as I'm writing this, I'm become more persuaded back in your direction. The Hiding side-box makes it clear that the Unseen Attackers and Targets rule only applies "under certain circumstances". The stealthy character shouldn't be an Unseen Target until they're hidden, not just being Stealthy. So, I think it's the DM's call, falling under RAW's allocating the circumstances appropriate to hiding to the DM, but I think the FAQ should make that clear.

Now, I'm back to thinking Hiding and "being Stealthy" are the same thing (mostly due to that sentence in the Hiding side-box PHB p.177)

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Thank you @Flamestrike for your insights! Here's where my group is at now on our FAQ:

• Are being Hidden and being Stealthy in combat the same thing? Yes, even during the movement to your hiding place. Hiding as you retreat from a creature is as difficult as remaining hidden as you approach one, and can only occur if the DM judges that the creature is sufficiently distracted. For example, say a non-adjacent monster has an action prepared to do a ranged attack against any opponent that moves, and that you are currently unhidden and visible to that monster. Let's say you first tell the DM you'd like to be Stealthy as you retreat, the DM determines that some of your opponents might be sufficiently distracted and calls for a Stealth check, and then you start to move to a hiding place. If the monster with the prepared action was one of your opponents determined to be sufficiently distracted, then their prepared action will only trigger if their passive Perception equals or bests your Stealth check. If that opponent is not sufficiently distracted, the monster's prepared action would trigger.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

And taking into account the same considerations, an update to the definition:

• Definition of "Being Stealthy" : Being stealthy represents an attempt to hide when your opponents are either distracted or cannot perceive you clearly, decided by the DM using the same criteria as for deciding appropriate circumstances for hiding.

Also, I'm thinking that if an ally took the Help action to distract an opponent, it would be much more likely that you could successfully hide from them as your retreat.

 

[Flamestrike]

It's true that you can't take the "Hide" action, but that doesn't mean you can't be Stealthy.

Yes it does.

While the action is called 'Hide' it relates to hiding and moving silently (and Stealth covers both as well).

For example, an invisible Rogue (not hidden) who wants to move silently, first needs to take the Hide action (while invisible, and likely as a bonus action if he's 2nd level or higher and has cunning action). Once he does that, he can move silently (while hidden) wherever he wants to, and remains hidden until he gives away his position, or a nearby creature uses the Search action to find him. His location is unknown.

If he just moves (without first taking the Hide action) then nearby creatures can track him (with sound, and other visual clues) as he moves just fine (although he is still invisible). He can Hide (as an action) at the end of that movement, but enemies will have a good idea of where he is (or at the very least what direction he was headed when he was moving while invisible but not hidden).

 

[Flamestrike]

Basically you cant take the Hide action unless you cant be seen clearly.

Either by ducking into total cover, heavy obscurement, being invisible, having a blinded or (DMs call) sufficiently distracted foe or one with his back to you (again, DMs call, as creatures are generally - but not always - aware of threats all around).

Once you fulfil the 'cant be seen clearly' precondition, you can attempt the Hide action.

Sneaking up in the blind spot behind a distracted Guard requires the Hide action to move silently (while unseen as he's looking away), as does doing so from in front of the Guard while invisible.

Once hidden (and unseen) you remain hidden until you give yourself away, cease being unseen, or your enemy succeeds in a Perception check (via the Search action) to find you.