D&D 5E (2014) 5E Survivor - Deities (Part 2: Greyhawk) Boccob Advances!

[The Glen]

Beory 23
Boccob 22
Celestian 22
Ehlonna 20
Erythnul 19
Fharlanghn 17
Heironeous 21
Hextor 20
Kord 14
Incabulos 20
Istus 19
Iuz 16
Nerull 19
Obad-Hai 20
Olidammara 21
Pelor 19
Pholtus 16
Ralishaz 20
St. Cuthbert 25
Tharizdun 13
Trithereon 22
Ulaa 16
Wee Jas 14

 

[Shiroiken]

Boccob 22
Celestian 22
Ehlonna 20
Erythnul 19
Fharlanghn 17
Heironeous 21
Hextor 20
Kord 14
Incabulos 20
Istus 19
Iuz 17
Nerull 19
Obad-Hai 20
Olidammara 21
Pelor 19
Pholtus 16
Ralishaz 18 - no one looks for you
St. Cuthbert 25
Tharizdun 13
Trithereon 22
Ulaa 16
Vecna 0 (DIE VECNA DIE!) - happy to see him gone, sad I missed the chance to do it myself by 14 minutes
Wee Jas 14

So ...I don't agree with that. The first entry is not the 1e DMG, it's Eldritch Wizardry (OD&D Supplement III). Technically, the very first entry for Vecna is under the Sword of Kas in that book. This sword, along with the famous hand and eye in the supplement, were later lifted wholesale and placed in the 1e DMG.

Forgot about EW, because I don't actually own any OD&D. Oops.

These entries were made by Brian Blume, but the choice to place them into the 1e DMG was (of course) done by Gygax. The default (and only) campaign setting for D&D products at that time was Greyhawk- until the release of the Grey Box FRCS, there was no other campaign setting (Kara Tur was originally designed to be Greyhawk).

In effect, you can take one of two views- either the naming of specific individuals when the only setting was Greyhawk means that they are part of Greyhawk, or not. Personally, I fell into the first camp. Named personages, whether they are directly traceable to the specific campaign of Gygax (Robilar, Mordenkainen) or not (Tasha, Vecna) are part of Greyhawk.

Your logic is flawed, since the default (and only) campaign settings at the time was the DMs. Greyhawk didn't exist as an official setting until after the DMG in 1980-81. How could the DMG default to Greyhawk, when Greyhawk didn't yet exist? It only existed as Gygax's home campaign, just as Rob Kuntz and other TSR employees had their own as well.

No, to assume that everything had to belong into Greyhawk just because it was Gygax's home game is both nonsense and disrespectful to his campaign. This is the same mentality that lead to Greyhawk absorbing everything in 3E and the Realms absorbing everything in 5E because they were the official "default setting."

And yes, there is a time for Vecna, just like Lum.

Just curious as to when and where in the Flanaess you'd fit it in without messing up the rest of the timeline. I actually like the idea of Vecna, and I want to find a good way to insert him in.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

dont keep dropping Beory, y’all… she gotta go to zero for that.

 

[OB1]

Boccob 22
Celestian 22
Ehlonna 20
Erythnul 19
Fharlanghn 17
Heironeous 21
Hextor 20
Kord 14
Incabulos 20
Istus 19
Iuz 17-2=15
Nerull 19
Obad-Hai 20
Olidammara 21
Pelor 19+1=20
Pholtus 16
Ralishaz 18
St. Cuthbert 25
Tharizdun 13
Trithereon 22
Ulaa 16
Wee Jas 14

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

It’s alright Beory.

I may not vote for you but I’ll always keep you in my list …

 

[Yardiff]

Boccob 22
Celestian 22
Ehlonna 20
Erythnul 19
Fharlanghn 17
Heironeous 21
Hextor 20
Kord 14
Incabulos 20
Istus 19
Iuz 15
Nerull 19
Obad-Hai 20
Olidammara 21
Pelor 20+1=21
Pholtus 16
Ralishaz 18
St. Cuthbert 25
Tharizdun 13
Trithereon 22
Ulaa 16
Wee Jas 14-2=12

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Your logic is flawed, since the default (and only) campaign settings at the time was the DMs. Greyhawk didn't exist as an official setting until after the DMG in 1980-81. How could the DMG default to Greyhawk, when Greyhawk didn't yet exist? It only existed as Gygax's home campaign, just as Rob Kuntz and other TSR employees had their own as well.

No, to assume that everything had to belong into Greyhawk just because it was Gygax's home game is both nonsense and disrespectful to his campaign. This is the same mentality that lead to Greyhawk absorbing everything in 3E and the Realms absorbing everything in 5E because they were the official "default setting."

So here's the thing. If you go back and look at the OD&D and the early AD&D material, as well a Dragon Magazine, you will see the references to Greyhawk prior to the release of the first folio. If we were to accept your logic, then anything released prior to the folio an 1980 couldn't be in Greyhawk. So ... the G Series? Not in Greyhawk. The D series? Not in Greyhawk. Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors? Not in Greyhawk. The Village of Hommlet? Not in Greyhawk. Even the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (which is in the Barrier Peaks), and was distributed prior to the Folio, and was also a convention adventure long prior to the Folio, wouldn't be in Greyhawk.

Not to mention that there was a supplement named after the campaign setting! Yeah, it was disappointing in that it did not reveal more details, but it foretold.

Moreover, you're overlooking the peculiar circumstances that existed back then. You are also overlooking the Dragon Magazine articles that were the backbone of the hobby (especially before the post '80 explosion) that recounted Gygax's experiences in Greyhawk; I think most still remember the '77 article about Gygax and Jim Ward doing the crossover Greyhawk/Metamorphosis Alpha campaign.

So, when presented with specific names and lore in the PHB or the DMG or other books, the correct assumption was that he was using "default Greyhawk," not his home campaign, but the lightly-flavored generic Greyhawk that would later be produced in 1980 in the Folio and then perfected in the campaign setting. Again, the GH that was released was never his home campaign.


You don't have to accept that- you can pick and choose what names in the PHB and DMG aren't in Greyhawk (and other pre-1980 material), but that leads to even more bizarre outcomes.

Just curious as to when and where in the Flanaess you'd fit it in without messing up the rest of the timeline. I actually like the idea of Vecna, and I want to find a good way to insert him in.

I would recommend the views of people at Canonfire for takes that include later material- see, e.g.,-

Canonfire! - Ancient History: Vecnas Realm

Canonfire! - A Vecna Timeline

My own GH does not incorporate any material post-'84, does not have Vecna as a God, and places his defeat (along with many of the personages that are mentioned regarding artifacts) prior to the settling of Easter Oerik, and prior to the great migration of the Suloise and Oerid people; the advantage of the original GH is that most of it is gaps to fill.

 

[Legatus Legionis]

.

 

[el-remmen]

Beory 23 [I was gonna down vote ya, b/c I have never even heard of ya - but everyone keeps leaving you off and now I feel bad]
Boccob 22
Celestian 22
Ehlonna 18
Erythnul 19
Fharlanghn 17
Heironeous 21
Hextor 20 +1 = 21
Kord 14
Incabulos 20
Istus 19
Iuz 16
Nerull 19
Obad-Hai 20
Olidammara 21
Pelor 21
Pholtus 16
Ralishaz 18
St. Cuthbert 25
Tharizdun 13 - 2 =11 [Boring]
Trithereon 22
Ulaa 16
Wee Jas 12

 

[Shiroiken]

So here's the thing. If you go back and look at the OD&D and the early AD&D material, as well a Dragon Magazine, you will see the references to Greyhawk prior to the release of the first folio. If we were to accept your logic, then anything released prior to the folio an 1980 couldn't be in Greyhawk. So ... the G Series? Not in Greyhawk. The D series? Not in Greyhawk. Acererak and the Tomb of Horrors? Not in Greyhawk. The Village of Hommlet? Not in Greyhawk. Even the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (which is in the Barrier Peaks), and was distributed prior to the Folio, and was also a convention adventure long prior to the Folio, wouldn't be in Greyhawk.

You've trapped yourself into an "all or nothing mentality," which I'll discuss later.

Not to mention that there was a supplement named after the campaign setting! Yeah, it was disappointing in that it did not reveal more details, but it foretold.

Hmmm.... I seem to recall a Blackmoor supplement too. Wasn't that a campaign setting?

You don't have to accept that- you can pick and choose what names in the PHB and DMG aren't in Greyhawk (and other pre-1980 material), but that leads to even more bizarre outcomes.

How so? It's not hard to just look for noted references. Gygax, Kuntz, and others have talked about their experiences in the Greyhawk campaign. The old Greyhawk adventures reference other aspects of Greyhawk, not to mention they're listed in the Boxed Set (I don't own the Folio, but they might have been in there too). It's pretty easy to see that anything that's not even indirectly referenced to Greyhawk shouldn't be considered Greyhawk.

I would recommend the views of people at Canonfire for takes that include later material- see, e.g.,-


My own GH does not incorporate any material post-'84, does not have Vecna as a God, and places his defeat (along with many of the personages that are mentioned regarding artifacts) prior to the settling of Easter Oerik, and prior to the great migration of the Suloise and Oerid people; the advantage of the original GH is that most of it is gaps to fill.

The story works if you put it pre-migration, but only the Flan exist in the area then. IMO Vecna's story just doesn't fit into the Flannae culture in any reasonable way. You have to add the idea of the Flan also had a more advanced culture that went into decay and was forgotten to time, just like the Suel and Bakluni. I just can't buy that, even if others can. The best I could do is part of the early migration, having him be one of the Suel nobility or an Oeridian tribal leader during their struggle for dominance.