D&D 5E [5E] To Vance or not to Vance - That is the Question

[TrippyHippy]

I guess this goes to the core of D&D playing styles, as discussed in the announcement of D&D 5th edition, in that I don't really come into the game from a tactical or utilitarian viewpoint of magic. While I can understand the argument of not wanting to have 'to use crossbows', the basic problem for me about 4th edition magic was that it was boring.

I'm a lapsed player, but when I did play, I always played Magic-Users. They tickled my imagination as I found the creative possibilities of selecting spells in particular themes interesting. With 4th edition everything just got reduced to blasting spells with 'area effects', it seemed and classified into Daily/Encounter/At Will (which was totally unmagical to me).

I'm not saying I want to go the whole hog towards an Ars Magica style system, but I do want to see magic that engages my imagination more, and embraces an element of player creativity. Vancian could work (with some alterations, possibly) - but with a greater notion towards spontaneity and possibly even combinations of spells (a bit like the Mage: The Ascension system, perhaps).

That's just my opinion anyway. Oh, and I'd like to see Witches being made a Core Class - they are as much of a fantasy archetype as Wizards and Sorcerers are.

 

[Ainamacar]

Sometimes you just run out of Awesome.

You don't keep liquid Awesome in the glove compartment right next to the liquid Schwartz?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I don't like Vancian. Never have, and I only played spellcasters rarely before 3.X; given my druthers, I'd rather see spellcasters work like a combination of Warlock/Dragonfire Adept and 3.X psionics.

 

[amerigoV]

I really like the system that Monte put together for his Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved.

Some highlights of the system:

• You picked your spells for the day
• Spell are then cast like a sorcerer (so you can cast readied spells multiple times per day)
• Had a nice system to combine or split a spell slot for casting flexibility. For example, you could sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot to cast 2 second level spells. Or you could combine 3 second level slots to cast a 3rd (their was always a "price" to pay for the flexibility)
• He had ways to work in other spell effects (the metamagic type stuff), but I never studied that closely.

So this allowed you to have a nice mix of "boom" and utility. But that does not mean you had the right spell for the occasion all the time (and you still had an overall constraint on spells cast per day). You had a lot of casting flexibility, so you rarely ran out of spells to cast. But on the GM side, you could ignore most of that stuff and just have a couple of spells the enemy mage could cast repeatedly.

It was a nice middle ground of Vancian and mana points, I thought.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I really like the system that Monte put together for his Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved.

Some highlights of the system:

• You picked your spells for the day
• Spell are then cast like a sorcerer (so you can cast readied spells multiple times per day)
• Had a nice system to combine or split a spell slot for casting flexibility. For example, you could sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot to cast 2 second level spells. Or you could combine 3 second level slots to cast a 3rd (their was always a "price" to pay for the flexibility)
• He had ways to work in other spell effects (the metamagic type stuff), but I never studied that closely.

So this allowed you to have a nice mix of "boom" and utility. But that does not mean you had the right spell for the occasion all the time (and you still had an overall constraint on spells cast per day). You had a lot of casting flexibility, so you rarely ran out of spells to cast. But on the GM side, you could ignore most of that stuff and just have a couple of spells the enemy mage could cast repeatedly.

It was a nice middle ground of Vancian and mana points, I thought.

That could work for me.

 

[MoxieFu]

You don't keep liquid Awesome in the glove compartment right next to the liquid Schwartz?

Not since the incident with the Instant Karma and Aqua Velva!

 

[MoxieFu]

I really like the system that Monte put together for his Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved.

Some highlights of the system:

• You picked your spells for the day
• Spell are then cast like a sorcerer (so you can cast readied spells multiple times per day)
• Had a nice system to combine or split a spell slot for casting flexibility. For example, you could sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot to cast 2 second level spells. Or you could combine 3 second level slots to cast a 3rd (their was always a "price" to pay for the flexibility)
• He had ways to work in other spell effects (the metamagic type stuff), but I never studied that closely.

So this allowed you to have a nice mix of "boom" and utility. But that does not mean you had the right spell for the occasion all the time (and you still had an overall constraint on spells cast per day). You had a lot of casting flexibility, so you rarely ran out of spells to cast. But on the GM side, you could ignore most of that stuff and just have a couple of spells the enemy mage could cast repeatedly.

It was a nice middle ground of Vancian and mana points, I thought.

It's been a long time since I looked at it but I do remember liking that. I think it would be good as an alternative system.

 

[Dausuul]

Wasn't "yes, but only if you want to" available since 3.0, at least for arcanists? Wizards for those who liked Vancian casting, sorcerers for those who didn't.

It was available in 3.X (and Pathfinder, I assume). It went away in 4E and has not come back.

 

[Neonchameleon]

First, if we're doing Vance, could we do Vance please?

A great wizard has maybe half a dozen spells memorised at any one time. And Vancian wizards are generalists focussing on flexibility rather than just on casting. Classic D&D wizards don't look like this (4e characters are closer with the vancian spells being dailies).

What D&D has as "Vancian magic" is a very gamist system with mages focussing on casting to the exclusion of all else. Merlin was a Bard. In 3.X terms, so was Gandalf. Loremaster, fought with sword. In fact I can't think of a mythological equivalent to the classic D&D wizard. On the other hand the D&D wizard is a great gamist construct, powerful but blocked from recharching through rest by wandering moster rolls. And "when do we use the spells" is an actually interesting question. If that's what you want then Vancian magic works. But strip that away and you need to really cut down the magic.

 

[Elf Witch]

I love Vancian and I would hate to see it go. I like that wizards need to plan and pick the right spells and if they don't well then they need to figure out how to use their other spells or find a place and fire crossbolts throw alchemy items or run and pour healing potions down the fighters throats.

I do like how 3E did it with wizards being able to know so many different spells but having limitations based on picking the right spell that day. And if you didn't want to do that you could play a sorcerer ad have access to all the spells you know with the limitation of having a limited spell list.

So my hope would be that 5E gives both options.