D&D 5E 5e witches, your preferred implementation?

[Cadence]

Serious question for the mods (or anyone who has been here a while and knows this place well): this keeps coming up.

Is it worth putting into a sticky somewhere? Composing a digest with links to all the prior threads? A big Table of Witch Classes? Discussion is fun but I feel like we keep reinventing the wheel.

I thought I was doing well to grab this old thread I remembered from last summer to use

It does feel like a lot of topics have a bunch of past posts threads though.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Discussion is fun but I feel like we keep reinventing the wheel.

But I thought that was what the internet and chat rooms/forums were invented for? So that people can endlessly argue discuss the same things.

 

[Shardstone]

In every culture that has witchcraft, you see some similarities. You see telepathy, expanded awareness, extrasensory perception, and the ability to learn information through mental detection instead of other methods. These enable the witch to do whatever divine stuff that culture calls magic.

So what if the witch was a Psion + a spellcaster? The witch could have a handful of Psionic Powers she powers with psi dice, and then spell slots ala Pact Casting. The Witch uses their psionic abilities to get into contact with different kinds of beings or forces, such as demons or elemental spirits or even ideas like fate. These witches then form covens, which are psionically linked and who dedicate their abilities to some arcane or divine concept. The Coven of Fates who all are oracles, the Midnight Coven who are diabolist, and the Coven of the Wilds who use their psionic abilities to commune with nature.

This is a very radical combination of the Witch and the Psion IMO, but I can easily create more 3 subclasses for it, it makes sense with all the psychic powers seen in witches across the globe, and using one's mind to alter the weave is the base of psionics in 5E. This also lets you combine powers with spells.

You could go further and make a Bene Gesserit witch archetype (The Coven of Rulers), fairy tale witches (the Coven of Fables), and so on, creating a strong narrative, mainstream genre push to the archetype.

I don't think anyone will agree with this vision, but I think if I had to have a witch, this kind of coven-based psion witch would be what I think would be the most fun to play and make the most sense for being added to the game.

 

[steeldragons]

I don't think anyone will agree with this vision, but I think if I had to have a witch, this kind of coven-based psion witch would be what I think would be the most fun to play and make the most sense for being added to the game.

I wouldn't say I don't agree.

I definitely think psionic powers is an integral part for any witch class iteration.

I differ in whether or not it should be the "base" of the class and all class function...but there should certainly be something in the base class features that is psychic-based.

And a subclass of a coven/witch that focuses in on development/use of psychic powers, I think, is definitely warranted.

 

[Faolyn]

In every culture that has witchcraft, you see some similarities. You see telepathy, expanded awareness, extrasensory perception, and the ability to learn information through mental detection instead of other methods. These enable the witch to do whatever divine stuff that culture calls magic.

There's also a frequent trend in many cultures to witches being able to lay curses of illness, impotency, or death; having spirit/magical animal allies; having healing abilities, either through magic or medicine (via herbs or animal parts); and using sympathetic magic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There's also a frequent trend in many cultures to witches being able to lay curses of illness, impotency, or death; having spirit/magical animal allies; having healing abilities, either through magic or medicine (via herbs or animal parts); and using sympathetic magic.

I wonder how we can put sympathetic magic in a 5e D&D class.

 

[Faolyn]

I wonder how we can put sympathetic magic in a 5e D&D class.

Presumably as a material component that's consumed by the spell.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Presumably as a material component that's consumed by the spell.

That's not especially satisfying, IMO. I'd like to find a way to specifically do sympathetic magic, or provide some manner of benefit for creating sympathetic links between components and subject.

 

[steeldragons]

I wonder how we can put sympathetic magic in a 5e D&D class.

For my homebrew witch class, I have a series of specific supernatural powers (akin to Pathfinder's "hexes" for their Witch class) that I call "Crafts." [Geddit? "Witch's Crafts?" I crack me up.] Among them, what probably most fits your desire, is called "Poppet."

As you might expect, it's a poppet. And, yes, you need some piece/thing of the target creature (hair, fingernail, a scrap of clothing, or personal possession, etc...) to use the poppet on the target. It requires an hour of making/enchanting (using the craft). The target must be observed for a minimum of (an additional) one hour. The poppet will only function for the witch that creates it.

Once complete, while the poppet is in the witch's possession, and the target is in the witch's presence, the target will act/react as if under a Charm Person spell. No save. At 3rd level, the witch can whisper direction to the poppet up to 10 x level feet away and the target will comply. At 5th level, the witch can use the poppet to instill a Suggestion spell on the target, once per day.

The poppet lasts one day per witch level, unless the poppet's "trigger" (if you will) is a physical piece of the target: hair, fingernail, a few drops of blood,...a finger, etc... in which case the connection is indefinite until the poppet is destroyed (or witch that made it dies). A witch can never have more poppets enchanted than their Cha or Int modifier (whichever is higher).

Really, if a player wanted, they could fluff many of the witch's supernatural (non-spell) powers as, essentially or implicitly "sympathetic magic." The PC always pulls out a nondescript poppet, or a specific crystal (any "arcane focus," basically), rubs their family heirloom jeweled pendant, or the arranges bones on the ground in different patterns to use any craft/cast any spell. But I understand you're looking for a specific mechanical thing.

That's not especially satisfying, IMO. I'd like to find a way to specifically do sympathetic magic, or provide some manner of benefit for creating sympathetic links between components and subject.

Using the above as a base mechanic, you could tweak it to include/apply to targets of any of the Witch's powers/spells...as a ritual performed at a distance...require a physical object/piece of the target (a side quest/part of the adventure all its own) to a certain distance that increases with level.

A low level witch could "hex" you from around a corner, for example. The local Coven Queen might be miles away.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For my homebrew witch class, I have a series of specific supernatural powers (akin to Pathfinder's "hexes" for their Witch class) that I call "Crafts." [Geddit? "Witch's Crafts?" I crack me up.] Among them, what probably most fits your desire, is called "Poppet."

As you might expect, it's a poppet. And, yes, you need some piece/thing of the target creature (hair, fingernail, a scrap of clothing, or personal possession, etc...) to use the poppet on the target. It requires an hour of making/enchanting (using the craft). The target must have be observed for a minimum of (an additional) one hour. The poppet will only function for the witch that creates it.

Once complete, while the poppet is in the witch's possession, and the target is in the witch's presence, the target will act/react as if under a Charm Person spell. No save. At 3rd level, the witch can whisper direction to the poppet up to 10 x level feet away and the target will comply. At 5th level, the witch can use the poppet to instill a Suggestion spell on the target, once per day.

The poppet lasts one day per witch level, unless the poppet's "trigger" (if you will) is a physical piece of the target: hair, fingernail, a few drops of blood,...a finger, etc... in which case the connection is indefinite until the poppet is destroyed (or witch that made it dies). A witch can never have more poppets enchanted than their Cha or Int modifier (whichever is higher).

Really, if a player wanted, they could fluff many of the witch's supernatural (non-spell) powers as, essentially or implicitly "sympathetic magic." The PC always pulls out a nondescript poppet, or a specific crystal (any "arcane focus," basically), rubs their family heirloom jeweled pendant, or the arranges bones on the ground in different patterns to use any craft/cast any spell. But I understand you're looking for a specific mechanical thing.

Using the above as a base mechanic, you could tweak it to include/apply to targets of any of the Witch's powers/spells...as a ritual performed at a distance...require a physical object/piece of the target (a side quest/part of the adventure all its own) to a certain distance that increases with level.

A low level witch could "hex" you from around a corner, for example. The local Coven Queen might be miles away.

Certainly a feature that gives a Spellcasting buff to the witch if they have something of the target would help.

I think something involving components, like if you use the actual material components for a spell (which generally follow sympathetic logic, even if they are oft silly), you get a buff to your casting, would also help.

Only kinda related, might also give them certain spells as rituals that normally aren’t, like spells of healing and restoration.

 

[Faolyn]

That's not especially satisfying, IMO. I'd like to find a way to specifically do sympathetic magic, or provide some manner of benefit for creating sympathetic links between components and subject.

Perhaps it greatly increases the range and/or duration of the spell. Like, bestow curse is a touch spell that lasts up to a minute. Perhaps, depending on the type of component (image/poppet --> personal belonging --> body part), the range could increase to 30 feet, 60 feet, or 120 feet, and the duration could increase to 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 8 hours. Maybe not both at once, or maybe that's something that gets unlocked as you go up in level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Perhaps it greatly increases the range and/or duration of the spell. Like, bestow curse is a touch spell that lasts up to a minute. Perhaps, depending on the type of component (image/poppet --> personal belonging --> body part), the range could increase to 30 feet, 60 feet, or 120 feet, and the duration could increase to 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 8 hours. Maybe not both at once, or maybe that's something that gets unlocked as you go up in level.

Oh! If you employ the sympathetic link mechanic, you can treat the item as the creature for targeting them with spells. Scale by spell level?

 

[Weiley31]

Eh I'd be quite honest: I'd probably use Bard, Druid, Warlock, or Paladin and just award them the use of the Witherbloom Feat AND UA Witherbloom Features that are awarded for "reaching" certain Renown rankings in their "Covern."

 

[Faolyn]

Oh! If you employ the sympathetic link mechanic, you can treat the item as the creature for targeting them with spells. Scale by spell level?

That might be better, if there were a few limitations on the poppet. It counts as the target for when you cast the spell, but may only be able to be used once or once/day (depending on level or the type of material). You can have multiple poppets, even more than one for a single person, though.

I'd also include a limitation saying that you can't cast a spell of 6th-level or higher through the poppet (dominate person is 5th level). Probably the type of poppet would also limit the level of the spell you can cast. If it's a likeness, maybe 1st level. If it's a belonging, maybe 3rd level, and if it's a body part (hair, teeth, blood), then it's 5th level. The other limitation would be that you would have to actually get the material for the poppet--you can't handwave it away with a component pouch or focus. And you'd have to be on the same plane, but that's a given.

Then there could be something like metamagics or invocations of a sort that you can choose that would increase duration, allow you to upcast to higher levels, etc.

Witches would still be able to cast spells normally, but they'd be subject to standard range/duration.

Although honestly, I'd be tempted to make this into just a new warlock pact boon and create a series of invocations to go with it.

 

[Faolyn]

Before my game tonight, I created this, for warlocks:

Pact of the Poppet
You gain the ability to create a poppet, a small figurine that resembles a humanoid form and is usually made of wood, cloth, or clay. You can use this poppet to cast sympathetic magic by magically linking the poppet to a humanoid target of your choice, using a 10 minute-long ritual and a token taken from your target. The token can take one of three forms: a likeness (a drawing, carving, or other image), a belonging (a favored weapon or tool, a piece of clothing the target wears frequently, or other personal item), or a piece (a lock of hair, a tooth, a few drops of blood). You must also know the target’s name, although this doesn’t have to be its birth name or true name; it must be a name that the target has called itself, however.

You can cast a spell you know through the poppet as if it were the target, regardless of the distance between you and the target, although you and the target must be on the same plane. The spell must only affect a single creature and can’t require an attack roll. If the token is a likeness, you can cast a 1st-level spell or cantrip. If the token is a belonging, you can cast a spell of 3rd level or lower. If the token is a piece, you can cast a spell of 5th level or lower. You can use this a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and all expended uses are restored when you finish a long rest. Once you use a token in this fashion, the token is destroyed.

If you lose the poppet, you can perform a 1-hour ceremony to receive a replacement from your patron. This ceremony can be performed during a short or long rest, and it destroys the previous poppet. The poppet turns to ash when you die.

I have no idea how balanced this is, however.

 

[Einlanzer0]

So, it still requires playtesting, but here's what I've done.

I took Kibblestasty's Occultist as a base (with the witch, shaman, and oracle subclasses) and made the following changes:

• I renamed it Mystic - I find this name fits the primal theme I want better than Occultist does
• I expanded the fetish section
• I made them half casters instead of full casters (OMG WHYYYY)
• I added a new ability called Trance that is similar to the Barbarian's rage and provides several benefits. Most importantly, it allows them to concentrate on up to two spells at one time and also to "upcast" their spells, effectively turning them (uniquely) into 2/3 casters without complicating the spell slot system for classes in general.
• I dramatically trimmed down their spell list so they have a relatively simple selection to choose from, but with some expansion of what is provided through the various subclasses.

All in all, I feel these changes make them both more straightforward (covering the "simple mage for beginners" need) and mechanically unique while also bridging the concept gap between the subclasses and emphasizing the role of ritual casting and occult rites in their repertoire.

The truth is I feel like something like this is what should have replaced the sorcerer in this edition. The sorcerer seriously has no reason to exist in 5e - it is not distinctive enough from the wizard either mechanically or thematically, doesn't really simplify spellcasters enough to be noteworthy, and bogards the metamagic rules which should have been more modular.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Cool!

I took Kibblestasty's Occultist as a base (with the witch, shaman, and oracle subclasses) and made the following changes:

• I renamed it Mystic - I find this name fits the primal theme I want better than Occultist does

I think he wanted to, but Wizards has staked out the "Mystic = Psionic class" territory pretty well already; if Kibbles' had named it that way, he would have had a lot of confusion.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Honestly I kinda want an RPG where the only casters are witches. Ok, and maybe priests.

 

[steeldragons]

Honestly I kinda want an RPG where the only casters are witches. Ok, and maybe priests.

Witches can easily be priests, too.

It's an interesting idea/angle for a setting.

 

[Blue Orange]

I've seen magico-religious practitioners divided into shamans, priests, healers, mediums, and witches.

Interestingly the scholarly wizard doesn't really have an analog in history. They're closer to a scientist really.