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D&D 5E 5e's stumbles

Iosue

Legend
That one seems OK to me. Is the character singing? Performance. Are they orating? Performance. Are they playing a lute? Tool (Lute).
Yup. Also, the distinction between technical skill and artistic skill. Are they playing the lute to move the Duke to tears? Performance. Are they trying to play a particularly difficult piece? Tool (Lute).

When Andy has to play One-Eyed Willie's organ, or they all die, it's her Tool (Piano) proficiency that matters, not her Performance skill, which she is not proficient in.
 

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And what did Primeval Thule did to fix it (in brief)?

I'm guessing: There's no splint or plate. The best armor is the Bronze Cuirass: AC 16 + Dex modifier (max 2). At the same time, there is no rapier (1d8 finesse weapon) and no hand crossbow (so no uber-weapon with Crossbow Expert usable in melee and at range). Might be some other factors I'm not remembering, but in general, I think it's fair to say that PT incents more Str and Dex martials, rather than one or the other, compared to standard 5e.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Overall, this is my favorite edition ever. Still, it wouldn't be D&D if I weren't looking for ways to fix it. :) So, my list...

1. Hiding and perception are just a mess. To be fair to WotC, it is really hard to get this stuff right (I've tried). However, that doesn't change the fact that they did not get it right.

2. Bounded accuracy is great for combat, but I'm less happy about its effect on skills. Combat involves a heap of attack rolls; even a modest difference in AC or attack bonus will have a significant effect over the course of a fight. Skill rolls tend to be one-offs, and the randomness of the d20 overwhelms the skill bonus until you get to fairly high levels.

3. Some subclasses were just not implemented very well. Beastmaster ranger and blade pact warlock, I'm lookin' at you.

4. While 5E does multiclassing better than any previous edition, it has not managed to avoid the "first-level problem." Due mainly to proficiencies, your class selection at level 1 has a significant impact on the viability of your character. A level 1 fighter/level 1 wizard is much more powerful than a level 1 wizard/level 1 fighter.

5. The CRs in the Monster Manual are... uh... not very reliable. They aren't even reliably wrong. It'd be nice if they could be recalculated according to the guidelines in the DMG. Speaking of which...

6. The DMG guidelines for calculating CR have some circular logic going on. The monster's attack bonus is one of the things that factors into calculating its CR, but CR determines proficiency modifier, and proficiency modifier plus ability mod is what determines attack bonus. I feel like the 5E CR guidelines are trying to meld the 3E "assemble the pieces" system with the 4E "modify a template" system, and the mixture didn't quite gel.

7. Certain feats, specifically Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Mastery, are substantially overpowered. Other feats are very weak.
 
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1. Caster hand economy. This whole concept is a mess (I hate that I even have to type "caster hand economy" but there it is), and RAW for it is buried in several separate places.

Yep, we ignore this. We go by spell components. By and large, though, we never have cared about casting with stuff in your hand. It tends to only harm the cleric, which is typically a class that has needed help because when played straight it's often boring to play.

2. Monster stat blocks. I loved that in 4e you had everything you need for a monster in its block. Now they are back to spell lists so I am printing things out ahead of time or flipping through the PHB. Bummer.

Eh. I got tired of 4e where the DM would say, "He casts fireball except it's more damage. And it's Fort for some reason." or "I don't know it just says it has a cold aura that causes necrotic damage." or "You all take damage as something hits you." And worse, a constant stream of, "No, you've never seen it before. No, you don't know anything about this creature," because every creature is a palette swap of something from 5 levels earlier with a different name so it has a completely different ability set.

3. Skill/tool proficiency overlap. What the heck? Perform vs. instrument proficiency especially. Not hard to adjudicate around the problem, but RAW it makes little sense.

I disagree. I like that tools can have multiple uses with multiple stats. Separating tools from skills is good. I'd just rather there were more tools.

4. Hiding is all over the place, again. The Twitter de-facto rulings are good.

We ignore Sage Advice fairly often. Our table disagrees with the rulings as just nonsense or as hyperliteral, or sometimes as just breaking the Rule of Cool. No, I don't care about Adventurer's League.

Hide and stealth, however, are absolutely a hot mess.

6. Drawing your weapon as part of the attack action is fine, don't even worry about it, but you can't draw both weapons before attacking with them unless you're implementing an entirely optional system of character customization and wait until level four when you will be allowed to sacrifice your basic stats in order to pick up that capability. Seriously?

Yep, we ignore that. If you've got Two Weapon Fighting style, you know how to draw two weapons quickly. If you're throwing weapons, you can draw and throw with each attack (that may actually be RAW, though).

7. Anyone with a swim speed can swing a maul (or flail) underwater, with no issues whatsoever.

I think the only time we were fighting underwater the DM just said that everyone with slashing and bludgeoning weapons had disadvantage, and ranged weapons had 10 foot range and had disadvantage. Should probably be a rule, but it didn't slow us down.

For us:

8. Polymorph rules still suck. They're so close, but they still suck. I feel like when the Druid is forced to revert by running out of hp, he should take 1d4 or 1d6 damage for each hit die of the creature he was transformed into.

9. Ranger sucks. I want to play Aragorn. I don't want to play Marc Singer.

10. Feats are really, really uneven. Great Weapon Mastery, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Polearm Master are all too much. The fact that so many feats (and Battlemaster abilities) add abilities that should just be in the Combat chapter is really sad. The lack of feats for spellcasters is also pretty sad.

11. Six saves. It's far more complicated than needed. For most classes you end up good at 1 thing, and crap at 5 things. Saves get bad enough as it is at high level. We don't need MAD on top of it. I miss 3e simple three saves. I miss 4e's combined abilities, too.

12. Int sucks. Dex rules.

13. Short rest refresh abilities don't work as intended. In 4e, you had to rest because everybody wanted encounter powers back. Also, in 4e it was 5 minutes. In 5e, too few classes have short rest abilities, so players often never want to short rest. This means Battlemaster Fighters, Monks, and Warlocks really lose out. I'd rather see these abilities have double or triple the uses and have them refresh on a long rest so that characters can actually do something in parties that aren't going to short rest.

14. We miss the Lazylock more than we thought we would. At the very least we need a cantrip:

Commander’s Strike (Not the Battlemaster One)
Transmutation cantrip or Enchantment cantrip I guess
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round

You touch one willing creature. The creature can then make a single melee attack against any creature in range. This spell increases the attack's damage by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (1d6), 11th level (2d6), and 17th level (3d6).

I'm not married to a martial Warlock. I'm fine running a War Cleric or Bard. I just miss the character. He was fun.

15. We miss 4e Fighter's Combat Challenge (mark and provoke) and Combat Superiority (stop movement). Protection style and Sentinel aren't really good enough because they consume your reaction. It doesn't work well without a better action economy for opportunity attacks.

I didn't really care for 4e. Nobody at my table did. However, there were some things we loved. We loved 4e Warlord. We loved 4e Fighter. We loved 4e saves. We also loved at will attacks, but those carried through.
 
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jodyjohnson

Adventurer
Ultimately when there were multiple ways something could be done they picked one. Which is the main issue.

Sometimes they picked the most restrictive and then expect folks to make it easier if they didn't like it (spell components).

Sometimes they picked the most liberal and then expect people will add restrictions (class and alignment. race and class) if they want.

Sometimes they went up the middle and some need to go left and some right (hits and damage vs. recovery, hand economy).

And they needed to pick something. Jeremy's Twitter feed continues to show that fans demand that Wizards officially choose a ruling for every possible situation. If they released your perfect 6e, it would very likely ruin what someone else liked about 5e.
 

Tectuktitlay

Explorer
The only real significant stumble for me is the overwhelming lack of choices made after character creation. For the most part, once you've picked a class and subclass, you are not making any real choices (except spells; as usual spellcasters, especially arcane casters, get the vast majority of the choice options each level). Considering they wanted this to be a highly modular game (and yes, I understand different thoughts about what it means to be modular), I was hoping that every character would have meaningful choices to make most, if not every new level, with this edition.
 
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Psikerlord#

Explorer
My top five 5e flumphs:

1. Passive perception = broken (imo!)
2. Too much hit point and damage inflation
3. Hiding bluurghh
4. Too much magic in the classes
5. Waaaay too hard to die, and even if you do: Revivify, raise dead and resurrection
 

S'mon

Legend
I'm guessing: There's no splint or plate. The best armor is the Bronze Cuirass: AC 16 + Dex modifier (max 2). At the same time, there is no rapier (1d8 finesse weapon) and no hand crossbow (so no uber-weapon with Crossbow Expert usable in melee and at range). Might be some other factors I'm not remembering, but in general, I think it's fair to say that PT incents more Str and Dex martials, rather than one or the other, compared to standard 5e.

My bronze cuirass wearing PT Barbarian is very happy. So is the DEX 14, AC 21 Fighter (cuirass,
shield, defensive). The group's Rapier-less & handcrossbow-less Rogue, less so. :D
 

Green1

First Post
Well, every PnP game that has ever been played any amount has had things that don't click.

Even sanctioned play stuff house ruled some stuff.

But, every game table I have played or DMed in had house rules. Though some editions were more heavily house ruled than others. 2e was ruthlessly house ruled.

5e's worst stumble?

- Magic item creation/ economy.

Really starts to show if your party starts to rule kingdoms, tries to be a magic item peddler, etc.
 

S'mon

Legend
5e's worst stumble?

- Magic item creation/ economy.

Really starts to show if your party starts to rule kingdoms, tries to be a magic item peddler, etc.

I guess if you want a world where "magic item peddler" is a thing, then yes 5e needs more/better rules. I'm not sure why it should harm kingdom rulership. I think the issue is just that 5e is like Classic D&D and assumes no magic item economy, but some players want a 3e/4e style where items are bought, crafted, and even form part of a 'build'.

Personally I find 4e's approach works fine, but I really hate 3e/PF crafting & purchase so I'm
happier with 5e. I especially like how making items in 5e takes a long time, same as in Classic.
 

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