D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[FormerlyHemlock]

That is an amusing answer as that made the fight different than anything we had dealt with in the past. So I'll give two answers.

Thanks for the answer, but it looks like I need to clarify my question:

You said that without Protection From Energy, someone would have died to breath weapons because even the fighter can't handle five breath weapons. You had two flying characters in melee with the dragons, and only one of them was protected by Protection From Energy because it only affects one creature and doesn't scale with additional spell levels. So why didn't one of either the fighter or the paladin die to breath weapons? It looks like they were both in melee range.

 

[Celtavian]

That is somewhat similar to how I play dragons, except I also give them all levels in Dragon Sorcerer (so they can e.g. Shield or Blur themselves). Without sorcerer levels they are too easy to kill, although "easy" is still a relative term. Against a vanilla AC 19 adult Red Dragon, one simple strategy that my test party would use at level 11 is: spend some your Necromancer's spell slots (three 4th and one 5th, although I actually use SP) to get 26 skeletons and equip them with longbows and scale mail. Use another 5th level spell slot to cast Seeming to disguise everybody in the party and the skeletons so they all look like identical urds (I know you run blindsight differently, as a form of truesight against illusions, but I don't--and anyway dragons only have 60' of blindsight). Use a dispersed formation spread out over 150' or so, about twice the area of a traffic intersection. Have the wizard waiting under a backup hardpoint with Leomund's Tiny Hut up, as a point of retreat if things go south. (A lot of the details depend on whether you're seeking the dragon in his lair, or expecting him to attack you out in the open. Wall of Force would work approximately as well.) From inside the hut, he spends his concentration on an Air Elemental which he sends with the party. As soon as the dragon enters range (600'), all the skeletons will fire doing 19.13 DPR on each round at long range while the dragon is closing on the party, and another 67.5 DPR at short range once the fight starts in earnest. The dragon's breath weapon is a 60' cone so covers 25% of the area of the formation, so at least 19 skeletons are guaranteed to survive the first breath weapon. That's just the skeletons--the air elemental is adding 14.9 DPR per round, or 22.35 total including the opportunity attack if the dragon tries to evade it to go after PCs, and of course the bardlock's 16 conjured Giant Owls from Conjure Animals V (who also look like urds) are hitting it for 37.6 DPR (plus up to 37.6 more from opportunity attacks) and hits it with Eldritch Blast on top of that for 10.05 DPR while the monk... well, her job is mostly done at that point because she did the recon, but she'll pew-pew with her longbow for 8.95 DPR while the paladin provides healing/blessing/sanctuary/etc. as needed, or adds 17.32 DPR if the dragon gets within melee range.

Total party DPR: 139 to 191.5 plus was inflicted at long range. The dragon has 256 HP and cannot significantly degrade the threat within a single round, so it's basically toast in two rounds against an 11th level party. That's why I give dragons sorcerer levels (Shield alone reduces skeleton DPR to 15.0, or 0.75 at long range) and why I also play up their Stealth and other capabilities (which is why the monk's job is to scout ahead).

How would you get the dragon to an advantageous position like that? I would never play a dragon allowing himself to be drawn into a situation where he had to cover 600 feet under arrow fire. I can't see any motivation for a dragon to attack in that fashion.
The dragons we fought did not leave their lair. We fought a white dragon, he alternated using ice wall and mist to divide the party. One lair action would have wiped out a bunch of skeletons if you had to bring them into its lair.

I do agree that in a party with ranged strikers dragons are far too easy.

We did use the Tiny Hut to make a fight against a green dragon trivial.

You have the following party to work with for your ideas, so you can work from the same situation we were in. Point buy. 8th level. Against Adult White dragon in its lair.

1. Paladin: Shield Master. Defensive Fighting Style. Oath of Vengeance. Human.

2. Fighter: Battlemaster. Human. Heavy Armor Mastery. Great Weapon Master Feat. Toughness.

3. Wizard Evoker. Forest Gnome. Resilient Con feat.

4. Lore Bard. Half-elf. Warcaster feat.

5. Life Cleric. Warcaster Feat. Human.

That was our party. 8th level against an adult white dragon in its lair on an iceberg we sailed to. Think up some strategies. Not an optimal party as we found out often due to a lack of darkvision and too many melee martials.

 

[Celtavian]

Thanks for the answer, but it looks like I need to clarify my question:

You said that without Protection From Energy, someone would have died to breath weapons because even the fighter can't handle five breath weapons. You had two flying characters in melee with the dragons, and only one of them was protected by Protection From Energy because it only affects one creature and doesn't scale with additional spell levels. So why didn't one of either the fighter or the paladin die to breath weapons? It looks like they were both in melee range.

Shield mastery. And high saves with Paladin saves and bless. And positioning so only three of the breath weapons could hit a melee target at once. All careful movement so all five couldn't hammer down. He had to use his LoH as well during that fight.

That's why we gave the prot. from energy to the cleric over the paladin. Paladin is just badass. That class was a night and day difference to our survival. We probably would have died without a paladin.

Dragon fright didn't work against him either. Paladin is a boss in 5E. If he could use smite with ranged weapons, every optimizer might as well make a dex-based paladin.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How would you get the dragon to an advantageous position like that? I would never play a dragon allowing himself to be drawn into a situation where he had to cover 600 feet under arrow fire. I can't see any motivation for a dragon to attack in that fashion.
The dragons we fought did not leave their lair. We fought a white dragon, he alternated using ice wall and mist to divide the party. One lair action would have wiped out a bunch of skeletons if you had to bring them into its lair.

The obvious answer that comes to mind for a dragon that won't leave its lair is "strafe it to death." I can set up a Leomund's Hut outside and send in the monk/bardlock/paladin + 16 Owls every ten minutes or so to deal fifty to a hundred points of damage to it, then when the owls are expended, retreat to the hut and heal any damage taken with Aura of Vitality, and repeat. Odds are good that after the first time I've done that it will emerge in a rage to attack us directly, and it's at that point that the skeletons clean its clock. It can't heal itself from the damage taken because unlike us, it doesn't know Aura of Vitality.

There may be better strategies but that's the first one off the top of my head for "how do you deal with someone who refuses to leave favorable terrain."

Edit: I just checked, and a red dragon's lair actions will kill a negligible number of skeletons anyway. The only one that matters is the magma, which won't even kill a single skeleton (34 HP vs. 21 damage on a failed save) and can only target maybe three skeletons at a time, and isn't usable two rounds in a row. The lair action is a complete non-factor.

 

[Sacrosanct]

How many pages was this on the right way or wrong way to play with your friends?

I really have to laugh, because this is all so strange to me. The root problem here, in my opinion, isn't that a wizard is limited by casting fly on a STR-based warrior. I think the real problem is that STR warriors don't have a lot of good ranged options. If they did? Then they'd have something to do with flying dragons when they come around, and the wizard could be having fun with a different Concentration spell, and everyone would be happy.

After that, if a caster wanted to put fly on the STR warrior anyways to make him faster, than that's a tactical choice then, and nothing approaching the feeling of an obligation that some people may feel.

The design flaw at the root of this crazy thing has nothing to do with Concentration, it has to do with the warrior. So, not only have we gone way off track by arguing about the Right Way to Play D&D With Your Friends, but the entire problem was misidentified in the first. The situation where a caster felt that casting fly on their friend was a necessity should never have come up in the first place. Buffing utility spells, like magic equipment, should be pure gravy when it happens, never a necessity or obligation.

I disagree that there's a problem with the warrior, and here's why. If I want to play a warrior, I have choices that are already there in the game. I can be super effective at ranged, at melee, or be pretty effective in both.

If I choose to specialize in being super effective in melee, then that's my choice and what comes along with it--less effective in ranged compared to someone who specialized there or is more general. If you take the position that someone who specializes narrowly should also be very effective outside of their specialization, then you end up with everyone complaining about how X is too powerful and the game is broken.

Now, if there weren't any options for me to play a fighter who was very effective in ranged, I'd agree with you. But there are options. Many of them in fact. A whole subclass actually.

This whole other argument is basically the same rehash of the "I'm playing a cleric and I can only cast healing spells because all the other players expect me to." Throw in a bunch of other statements like begin stuck to cast only healing spells and nothing else for fear of repercussions, and I say that's a whole lot of bollocks.

 

[DaveDash]

It usually dies within a few rounds. PCs are way tougher than monsters, at least those in the Monster Manual.

Everything we fought, including Legendary Creatures, besides dragons died super quickly. A GWM fighter and a paladin with buffs can do some impressive damage very fast in 5E.

Level 15 group vs a Balor.

Fighting in a Coliseum, proving their worth to a NPC Half Fiend Half Fire Giant. He calls down the Balor to fight as his champion from the sky.

It flies down from the heavens as a ball of flame. The PCs see and feel it approach, fire starts to rain down setting parts of the arena alight. They have one round to prepare.

First thing they so is the Bard casts fly on the Paladin. The Cleric puts up holy aura. The Wizard gets his defensive spells ready (Mirror image I think).

The Balor crashes down into the arena with a huge roar, and flames rain down from everywhere.

The Bard knowing that he is squishy and is concentrating on the most important spell in the fight (fly) jumps into his portable hole to hide.

The Balor flies in the air and lashes out with his whip at the Cleric, pulling her into the air and into her flames. She tries to warding flare but the Balor isn't phased. She's hurt badly.

The Wizard casts Maze on the Balor and *poof* it is gone. Cleric falls to group on about 30/120hp.

She heals up, casts Holy Aura. Paladin drinks a potion of fire giant strength and an oil of speed. Wizard goes as far away as possible and casts a few more buff spells on himself (blink) then dismisses the Maze.

Paladins readied action fires and he misses (rolled a 3). The Balor ignores him and teleports next to the Cleric. On the Paladins full turn he flies up to it and lays into it, doing ~140 damage to it in one round and bloodying it.

It lashes out at the Cleric again with its longsword and whip, attempting to drag her up into the sky in its flames, but the Abjurer this time puts his arcane ward over her, and she warding flares the Balors whip attack.

Then, on the Paladins turn again he does another ~140 damage again in one round to kill it. It explodes, knocking everyone over and setting the arena ablaze.

Now, could you imagine this fight if they didn't fly the Paladin? Or the Bard hung around in the open concentrating? It would have been WAY harder.

Btw this is not a post arguing against your points, but as to serve an example OF your points, which I don't think people are getting.

 

[S_Dalsgaard]

Well, in the future when I play a bard or a wizard I am not going to learn Fly, cause it would bore me out of my skull to have to spend an entire battle hiding in a hole.

 

[Mephista]

I don't know about no set classes. I do agree the variance is wider. Clerics, druids, and bards are all very viable options for party healer.

Most classes can build for damage. I was surprised to find out the cleric is extremely powerful at hammering. Most of the party was down. The wizard was banished. Monk and archer were dropped. Warlock/Fighter and cleric were last men standing. Cleric activated spiritual guardians, spiritual weapon, and started carving her way through the enemies. I'm finally starting to get out of the healer mode of other editions and bring the hammer with the cleric. They are vicious. Now I see why people were mentioning the cleric as a power character.

Druids, wizards, and bards can do battlefield control quite well.

Well, not every class can do everything - warlocks, for instance, are currently not built for anything remotely approaching being a healer/party buffer. But everyone can do a lot of things, and trying to assign roles (even just labeling them arcane or divine or whatever) is restrictive on what they can do.

I disagree that there's a problem with the warrior, and here's why. If I want to play a warrior, I have choices that are already there in the game. I can be super effective at ranged, at melee, or be pretty effective in both.

This only holds true if you're making a DEX-based warrior who can effectively use a bow. STR-based warriors, like the entire Barbarian class or the default style Paladin, don't really have good ranged options. Can you make super effective ranged Barbarians? Super effective ranged paladins? If not, then I personally consider that a flaw in the game design. There's no choice involved. Unless you're saying to never play those classes, which is not a choice at all.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You have the following party to work with for your ideas, so you can work from the same situation we were in. Point buy. 8th level. Against Adult White dragon in its lair.

1. Paladin: Shield Master. Defensive Fighting Style. Oath of Vengeance. Human.

2. Fighter: Battlemaster. Human. Heavy Armor Mastery. Great Weapon Master Feat. Toughness.

3. Wizard Evoker. Forest Gnome. Resilient Con feat.

4. Lore Bard. Half-elf. Warcaster feat.

5. Life Cleric. Warcaster Feat. Human.

That was our party. 8th level against an adult white dragon in its lair on an iceberg we sailed to. Think up some strategies. Not an optimal party as we found out often due to a lack of darkvision and too many melee martials.

Okay, with that party to work with against a CR 13 white dragon (Deadly threat), here are my thoughts/observations. Bear in mind that I never play clerics, so I may overlook some cleric tricks, but:

First, your evoker isn't really online yet as an evoker (that really happens at level 14), so your primary damage dealers are your melee warriors. Under those conditions, spending concentration on Fly so they can engage is clearly your best choice. You did the right thing for the party you had. Furthermore, the key to winning this battle is going to be to concentrate all your eggs in the melee warriors' basket so they can kill the dragon.

Second, Death Ward is awesome insurance against things that have huge damage rolls, like dragons. It could be like having an extra 50 HP under the right circumstances, and allows you to not panic if a warrior goes down to only 20 HP. Your cleric can cast it twice, so it should be pre-cast on both warriors.

Third, Aid may not be huge, but it's always worth casting if you can afford it, so your cleric will pre-cast Aid III for 10 bonus HP on himself and the two warriors.

Fourth, during battle the cleric can spend his concentration on Bless to protect the warriors, and he can cast Spiritual Hammer if geography permits and then spend his actions either 1.) Healing wounded warriors, 2.) Casting Sacred Flame on the dragon for minor damage and then casting Sanctuary on whichever warrior has last attacked. Legendary Resistance is basically useless against Sanctuary, or rather it burns through Sanctuary very quickly if the dragon expends it there, rendering it more vulnerable to counterattack from the wizard and bard. I would suggest Guardian of Faith here as a good non-concentration spell, but the cleric has spent both of his 4th level slots already.

Fourth, without knowing what your lore bard's magical secrets are it's hard to say what he can do. If it were me, he'd have Conjure Animals and summon up a flock of disposable owls to clutter the battle and do damage. If he doesn't, well, I could either cast Heroism III on the cleric and warriors to protect against Frightful Presence, or I could Polymorph myself into a giant ape and chuck rocks at it. Heroism is a safer play and allows me to use Cutting Words to protect the warriors from melee attacks (expend it on rolls in the 7-11 range), and also lets me give Inspiration to boost saves/attacks. If the dragon runs out of Legendary Resistances from Sanctuary I could switch to Confusion or Hypnotic Pattern.

Fifth, the wizard will mostly be maintaining Fly IV on the two warriors, but he can spend his actions chucking Fireballs at the dragon for 28 points of damage apiece unless the dragon makes his weak Dex save or expends a Legendary Action.

Sixth, the paladin of vengeance will do what he does best and smite the dragon, hoping for critical hits to blow his big spells. And the battlemaster fighter will action surge and power attack the dragon and use superiority dice with Precise Strike to turn near misses into hits. He's got five d8s, and he's also got Bless and Bardic inspiration, so with luck he'll inflict around 75 DPR over the course of the first two rounds.

I add all of that up and it still looks pretty dicy for the PCs (I'll guesstimate 150 damage dealt to the dragon total over the first two rounds, which you said is the point where your PCs start dying--hopefully Death Ward and Sanctuary will buy some extra time), but those suggestions are the best I can do. Hopefully it's enough that they survive the hypothetical battle.

 

[DaveDash]

Well, in the future when I play a bard or a wizard I am not going to learn Fly, cause it would bore me out of my skull to have to spend an entire battle hiding in a hole.

So you'd rather a TPK then than buff your main damage dealer? With many fights I have ran if the Bard didn't cast fly on the Paladin, it would be a TPK.

Hiding is a bit extreme, but he'd rather the group succeeds than fails, and he's had plenty of moments to shine in other combats, or in the social/exploration pillar of the game.

It really makes me wonder though if DMs are pushing their players at all letting them get away with tactics like forcing their melees to use bows in Dragon fights. I'd gladly TPK a group that did that so hard with no remorse, mercy, or plot armour.
We're not playing Dungeons and Cuddle Time, after all.