D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

It's never really been an issue. Thrown weapons do more than enough damage to keep me lee characters in the game and there are so many ways to reduce something's speed to zero that you can knock things out of the sky fairly reliably.

Interesting you say that, because I've witnessed a higher level melee fighter attempting to throw Javelins and hand axes in a Dragon fight against a CR16 Dragon, and their impact was basically negligible.

Firstly he had to ready actions to be able to get a shot in, because the Dragon wasn't stupid enough to stay within throwing range of him. That meant one attack per round, so a serious drop in DPR.

Secondly - how much ammo does he have, how is he accessing 20+ hand axes/javelins? If he is storing them in a bag of holding he's going to have to spend actions digging them all out.

The Paladin in my game also has a Javelin of Lightning. He doesn't use it much unless he has no other option because it's a waste of DPR. Fortunately the party has figured out its much more effective overall to get him into melee range than any other tactic.
 

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Interesting you say that, because I've witnessed a higher level melee fighter attempting to throw Javelins and hand axes in a Dragon fight against a CR16 Dragon, and their impact was basically negligible.

Firstly he had to ready actions to be able to get a shot in, because the Dragon wasn't stupid enough to stay within throwing range of him. That meant one attack per round, so a serious drop in DPR.

Secondly - how much ammo does he have, how is he accessing 20+ hand axes/javelins? If he is storing them in a bag of holding he's going to have to spend actions digging them all out.

The Paladin in my game also has a Javelin of Lightning. He doesn't use it much unless he has no other option because it's a waste of DPR. Fortunately the party has figured out its much more effective overall to get him into melee range than any other tactic.

Why would they have to ready actions? None of the dragon's attacks are more than about 100 feet in range. That's still in javelin range. And, why only one attack on the ready? You don't lose your multiple attacks on a ready action - you gain those multiple attacks any time you take an attack action.

How big do you think a javelin is that you can't carry a quiver of them? 20 javelins doesn't take up much more space than a quiver of arrows and a bow.

Why isn't your Paladin using his Oath (presuming he's a Vengeance Paladin (And, I don't have my books in front of me, so I might have the names wrong)) to reduce enemy speeds to zero?

IOW, ignoring the GWF feat, there's no significant damage difference between using javelins and using a melee weapon (barring magical enhancements).
 

Right. PCs don't know that. They just see a wall of ice.

Okay, just so we're on the same page. I agree that intelligence (in the military sense) is key, and that if you don't know what you're facing it gets exponentially harder. "Unknown unknowns" and all that, or in other words uncertainty >> risk.

Range characters are a lot easier to deal with when you see how many ways there are to break LoS, even without a physical obstruction. There are a zillion spells that provide heavy obscurement which will block LoS and effectively remove the ranged attacker's ability to effectively contribute in combat.

It kind of depends on how you run heavy obscurement. Some people like to make ranged attackers play a guessing game of "which square am I in," in which case yeah, attacking through heavy obscurement isn't really feasible (and Pass Without Trace becomes a superpower--Dancing Lights and all that, we've talked about it before). If you just go with "attacking gives away your position and you can then be attacked at disadvantage", heavy obscurement hurts, but it's not crippling the same way it is under the "guess where I am" playstyle.

Most of the ways you've listed to break LoS involve spellcasting, and spellcasting opponents are orders of magnitude more dangerous than regular opponents. Or if not orders of magnitude, at least 100-200%. That's why I give my dragons Sorcerer levels, so they're not pushovers. Spellcasting dragons can mess with spellcasters just as easily as they can mess with ranged characters, by Counterspelling, (Quickened) Dispelling their Fly/Haste/Protection From Energy/Death Ward combos, Misty Stepping past Walls of Force, etc., etc.

One of the most important questions to ask during recon phase of dragon slaying in my games is, "What spells does it know?" Or in other words, when you cast your Commune/Divination/Contact Other Plane/whatever, ask questions like, "Will Ferrovankoth be able to counterspell my magic?"

And when you don't have spells, there are plenty of physical obstructions on most battlefields, just try to have as many enemies as possible end their turn without providing LoS to the archer and you'll see his effectiveness drop significantly.

Long-range archery duels with terrain are fun. I don't think melee characters are better at this game than archers are, but it certainly does complicate and prolong the conflict, and it provides more opportunities for archers to make a mistake and get waxed by melee dudes.

That is, you'll see the archer's per-round effectiveness drop markedly, but his overall relative effectiveness delta is harder to analyze. At minimum he can hold his actions waiting for a target to pop up, but then he only gets one attack instead of two or three.

Your point is taken, though. It's possible for the archer to simply shoot down many walls, but even so, that's a round they're spending not damaging your monster, and it's far easier to do this to a ranged attacker than a melee'er in most cases, since IMC ranged characters tend to stay away from the thick of things, generally popping out 15 ft from cover, shooting off some arrows or a cantrip before retreating back behind cover. This frequently makes them more easily isolated by these kinds of terrain/battlefield/visibility control effects.

The way I prefer to use ranged combat is to keep ranged combatants within mutual support range, but dispersed enough to mitigate area effects like Medusa visages and dragon breath. In this kind of a situation, a dragon who puts up a wall is spending a lair action to burn a few attacks from the archers (assuming they know that it's feasible to shoot through it), which is worth doing since it's free but doesn't really cripple the party. Since overkill is a core value, if I've brought 24 skeletons and 16 Giant Owls as outlined in my previous post about how I'd hunt an adult red, the white dragon's ice wall will be no more than a minor inconvenience. In short, what I'm saying is that ranged attacks scale very nicely--but if you have only a single ranged character the scaling benefit is less important and the archer may be subject to isolation as you describe.

On the other hand, isolating a single melee character (e.g. via grapple + fly) is often better. Isolating an archer might mean that you're fighting 3 melee characters without archer support; isolating a melee character means you're fighting 1 melee character with 1 supporting archer, possibly at disadvantage for long range. The latter is more advantageous if you can manage it.
 

My takeaway from all of this is, "Don't make one trick pony parties and characters". Make sure your character, certainly by high level, can do both ranged and melee. Since we're talking about 15th level characters here, it's pretty trivially easy to do both, even if you're better at one than another.
 

Our adventuring day is fewer, harder combats meant to use all our resources in one big combat to the death. XP budgets usually exceed the recommended amount. We play very deadly with the DM using as optimal as possible tactics for the NPCs. We had a bunch of these in Tyranny of Dragons against you know what.

I find it hard to believe that most people sitting around the table gaming with their buddies don't cast a buff spell on him to help him get into combat.

I find it hard to believe that most people sitting around reading this forum would find it enjoyable for a player of a spell caster PC to cast his one and only concentration spell in the one and only fight of the day to buff a fellow PC when the spell caster has 15 or more spell slots, 20 or more prepped spells, and he's not only lavishing his sole concentration spell on such a thing, but possibly expending his first round casting it.

Personally, if your DM was actually using optimal tactics, he would be throwing four or five such "deadly optimal possible NPC tactics" extremely tough encounters at your group in a single day where the players think that each one is the mega encounter of the day, only to find out, nope, that's not it (but it did use up a bunch of your resources).
 

Why would they have to ready actions? None of the dragon's attacks are more than about 100 feet in range. That's still in javelin range. And, why only one attack on the ready? You don't lose your multiple attacks on a ready action - you gain those multiple attacks any time you take an attack action.

How big do you think a javelin is that you can't carry a quiver of them? 20 javelins doesn't take up much more space than a quiver of arrows and a bow.

Why isn't your Paladin using his Oath (presuming he's a Vengeance Paladin (And, I don't have my books in front of me, so I might have the names wrong)) to reduce enemy speeds to zero?

IOW, ignoring the GWF feat, there's no significant damage difference between using javelins and using a melee weapon (barring magical enhancements).

Ah ha. I think we've figured it out.

You cannot take a full attack action on a readied action. You can only take ONE attack, and likewise if you ready a spell you must concentrate on it. Two often overlooked rules.

Not sure what you're talking about with the oath, but I'll have to look that up.

Also again, the Dragons we fought didn't stay in Javelin range, and a full attack with disadvantage isn't a great option, and even when he tried (he did full attack trying to do menacing strike on the Drago ) he doesn't have tons of ammo to burn through, without spending actions to get some out of his bag of holding.

Compared to actually casting fly on him and letting him get in there, it's very subpar tactically.

The one situation its optimal to try and waste resources on bringing the Dragon down, instead of buffing your main melee damage character, is if you have multiple melee damage dealers. Better buff up the grapple bard (Enlarge, Fly) in that case. :)
 
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Why would they have to ready actions? None of the dragon's attacks are more than about 100 feet in range. That's still in javelin range. And, why only one attack on the ready? You don't lose your multiple attacks on a ready action - you gain those multiple attacks any time you take an attack action.

Not quite. You gain extra attacks "when you take the attack action on your turn." If you hold an attack, you're not attacking on your turn and so Extra Attacks doesn't apply.

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/557812617369378816

Koontz said:
@JeremyECrawford. A player with multi attack readies an attack, do they get all attacks on the trigger or just one

JeremyECrawford said:
@Koontz If you mean the Extra Attack feature, the extra attacks happen only on your turn.

Also, javelins at 100' are at disadvantage, which is pretty crummy against high-AC dragons. It's not totally ineffectual but it's not great.
 

My takeaway from all of this is, "Don't make one trick pony parties and characters". Make sure your character, certainly by high level, can do both ranged and melee. Since we're talking about 15th level characters here, it's pretty trivially easy to do both, even if you're better at one than another.

My takeaway is that the -5/+10 of GWM and Sharpshooter should be once per turn (or even once per round) abilities (10 extra points of damage instead of 30 to 50 extra points of damage).
 

I find it hard to believe that most people sitting around reading this forum would find it enjoyable for a player of a spell caster PC to cast his one and only concentration spell in the one and only fight of the day to buff a fellow PC when the spell caster has 15 or more spell slots, 20 or more prepped spells, and he's not only lavishing his sole concentration spell on such a thing, but possibly expending his first round casting it.

You make it sound like concentration spells are the only spells around.

My Wizard saved the Bard from death last night by casting Force Cage over a couple of Abyssal Ghouls which had stunlocked him, and were ripping him to shreds. He was concentrating on a Bigby's Hand at the same time.
Some very valuable control spells actually don't require concentration, and then there's always direct damage spells while your casting.

When fighting a Dragon there's not a lot of spells you can cast initially that require concentration - apart from buffs - that are that useful, due to its legendary resistance. From a Wizards point of view anyway.

Personally, if your DM was actually using optimal tactics, he would be throwing four or five such "deadly optimal possible NPC tactics" extremely tough encounters at your group in a single day where the players think that each one is the mega encounter of the day, only to find out, nope, that's not it (but it did use up a bunch of your resources).

After a couple of near TPKs with mind flayers and the like, my group has figured out which spells they need to save for which encounters.
 

I find it hard to believe that most people sitting around reading this forum would find it enjoyable for a player of a spell caster PC to cast his one and only concentration spell in the one and only fight of the day to buff a fellow PC when the spell caster has 15 or more spell slots, 20 or more prepped spells, and he's not only lavishing his sole concentration spell on such a thing, but possibly expending his first round casting it.





Personally, if your DM was actually using optimal tactics, he would be throwing four or five such "deadly optimal possible NPC tactics" extremely tough encounters at your group in a single day where the players think that each one is the mega encounter of the day, only to find out, nope, that's not it (but it did use up a bunch of your resources).



As a Wizard player, I wouldn't prepare such a spell. Straight up.

As a DM, if a party made the melee dude fly with a Concentration spell, breaking Concentration is a key tactic. And the players would be reluctant to try it.
 

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