D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Fanaelialae]

Now get me that list of easy methods for reducing the speed of adult dragons to zero, so they fall out of the sky without being in melee combat requiring fly.

I can give you two, though there are undoubtedly more (I only checked up to 5th level wizard spells).

Bigby's Grasping Hand and Telekinesis. Which are spells that you probably have access to by the time you're facing adult dragons.

Bigby's is is a decent default choice. It uses a +8 ability check which matches or beats that of the majority of dragons. As a bonus, you can do a bit of damage to the dragon. It's unclear whether the grapple would cause the dragon to fall outright or if the hand holds it in the air and has to drag it down (which might take a few rounds depending on how high it's flying). Since the dragon can try to escape every turn, this is arguably the lesser option unless the DM rules that the grapple causes the dragon to fall from the sky automatically. So it will vary campaign to campaign.

Telekinesis is a great choice if you have a bit of backup. Someone in this thread mentioned that they had a cleric, bard and wizard in the party, and this is the perfect setup for Telekinesis. With the bard's inspiring word and the cleric's guidance, your Telekinesis has a good chance to beat even ancient dragons in an ability check (wizard's +5+1d10+1d4 = +13 vs dragon's +8). The really great thing about this spell is that it restrains the dragon until the end of your next turn (dragon has no chance to escape before then). So your allies have advantage on their attacks!

Note that since both of these spells utilize ability checks, legendary resistance cannot help the dragon in question. That's the key.


There are also other, non-magical options. For example, anyone with the Sentinel feat just needs to be strafed by the dragon to lock it into position for a melee beat down (or simply get adjacent to it before it gets airborne, perhaps with the help of a mage's dimension door spell).

Against the Young varieties it becomes even easier, especially since they lack legendary resistance. A battlemaster with a bow can trip attack them out of the sky, or a caster could use the EE Earthbind spell.

 

[DaveDash]

As a Wizard player, I wouldn't prepare such a spell. Straight up.

As a DM, if a party made the melee dude fly with a Concentration spell, breaking Concentration is a key tactic. And the players would be reluctant to try it.

My players have learnt to quite easily mitigate such DM tactics. Either by cunning use of full cover, utlizing small caves where Dragons don't do well, going Ethereal, or jumping into bags of holding/portable holes.

I love it how DM's are like "Well I'll just do this! Simple!". I don't know about your groups, but my players are smart and they have four brains to my one. The first such fight is usually hard, but if they survive they learn and adapt.

Also depending on your party makeup, breaking concentration isn't that easy. I hit the Bard in my group with a finger of death for 68 damage last night. Guaranteed to ruin concentration right? Nope.
First of all easily made his save (Resilient Con, Standing in Paladins aura). So that's now 34 damage, halved for his concentration check is a DC of 17. +7 con save plus paladin aura = +10, plus Bardic inspiration = easy save.
Oh, and he had Bless on. And if he really needed to make it, inspiration.

 

[DaveDash]

I can give you two, though there are undoubtedly more (I only checked up to 5th level wizard spells).

Bigby's Grasping Hand and Telekinesis. Which are spells that you probably have access to by the time you're facing adult dragons.

Bigby's is is a decent default choice. It uses a +8 ability check which matches or beats that of the majority of dragons. As a bonus, you can do a bit of damage to the dragon. It's unclear whether the grapple would cause the dragon to fall outright or if the hand holds it in the air and has to drag it down (which might take a few rounds depending on how high it's flying). Since the dragon can try to escape every turn, this is arguably the lesser option unless the DM rules that the grapple causes the dragon to fall from the sky automatically. So it will vary campaign to campaign.

Telekinesis is a great choice if you have a bit of backup. Someone in this thread mentioned that they had a cleric, bard and wizard in the party, and this is the perfect setup for Telekinesis. With the bard's inspiring word and the cleric's guidance, your Telekinesis has a good chance to beat even ancient dragons in an ability check (wizard's +5+1d10+1d4 = +13 vs dragon's +8). The really great thing about this spell is that it restrains the dragon until the end of your next turn (dragon has no chance to escape before then). So your allies have advantage on their attacks!

Note that since both of these spells utilize ability checks, legendary resistance cannot help the dragon in question. That's the key.


There are also other, non-magical options. For example, anyone with the Sentinel feat just needs to be strafed by the dragon to lock it into position for a melee beat down (or simply get adjacent to it before it gets airborne, perhaps with the help of a mage's dimension door spell).

Against the Young varieties it becomes even easier, especially since they lack legendary resistance. A battlemaster with a bow can trip attack them out of the sky, or a caster could use the EE Earthbind spell.

I know of all these options. Unless you have a group of melee fighters they're sub-optimal. Especially the Bigby's Hand option due to the rulings being up for debate. By the time you've already accomplished this, put the Dragon on the floor, group B has already buffed their GMW Fighter and killed the Dragon.

There is nothing more fail safe than putting a couple of buffs on a character who can simply kill the Dragon in two rounds, if he gets close, than wasting resources on things that *may* work.

It costs a GMW Fighter nothing to swing and hit for 150+ damage. You're expending two resources (fly and haste) - both third level spells - to seal the deal.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I know of all these options. Unless you have a group of melee fighters they're sub-optimal.

There is nothing more fail safe than putting a couple of buffs on a character who can simply kill the Dragon in two rounds, if he gets close, than wasting resources on things that *may* work.

It costs a GMW Fighter nothing to swing and hit for 150+ damage. Youre expending two resources (fly and haste) - both third level spells - to seal the deal.

Celtavian asked for options to reduce a dragon's speed to zero. I gave him a few easy options to reduce a dragon's speed to zero.

Nothing is foolproof. If the flying warrior gets tagged with Dispel Magic (or the caster's concentration is disrupted) you end up with a prone warrior who's suffered falling damage.

As for why someone might prefer these options, a wizard player may be happier casting Bigby's or Telekinesis than Fly. I know I would. In the case of Telekinesis, the dragon is restrained, meaning your melee will thank you for the advantage. That's certainly an advantage over Fly.

Back in a 3rd edition campaign we had a sorcerer in a melee heavy party. We wanted him to take Haste (because it was SOOOOO good) but all he wanted to do was cast Lightning Bolt and Disintegrate. In the end it was his character, his choice to make, and we managed.

I currently have a 7th level wizard in a campaign and I don't even have Fly in my spellbook. Too many other good options available (for example, the DM had been tearing us apart with night raids, so I took Tiny Hut to stop them).

Fly might be the best option for dealing with a dragon in many cases, but it's certainly not the only good option. You make your choices and let the dice fall as they may.

 

[Hussar]

Ah ha. I think we've figured it out.

You cannot take a full attack action on a readied action. You can only take ONE attack, and likewise if you ready a spell you must concentrate on it. Two often overlooked rules.

Not sure what you're talking about with the oath, but I'll have to look that up.

Also again, the Dragons we fought didn't stay in Javelin range, and a full attack with disadvantage isn't a great option, and even when he tried (he did full attack trying to do menacing strike on the Drago ) he doesn't have tons of ammo to burn through, without spending actions to get some out of his bag of holding.

Compared to actually casting fly on him and letting him get in there, it's very subpar tactically.

The one situation its optimal to try and waste resources on bringing the Dragon down, instead of buffing your main melee damage character, is if you have multiple melee damage dealers. Better buff up the grapple bard (Enlarge, Fly) in that case.

Hemlock covered this, but, just to repeat, you do not only get one attack on a readied action. You get one ACTION on a readied action. If your read how fighters get their extra attacks, they get extra attacks whenever they take the attack action. They do not gain extra actions. So, I ready an attack action, and, if I'm a fighter or someone who gains extra attacks, then I get all my attacks on that readied action.

Note, a character with two weapon fighting, for example, would not gain attacks with the off hand weapon with a readied action.

But, if that's how you interpret readied actions, then it totally makes sense that you would think that thrown weapons are more or less pointless.

And, again, how big do you think these weapons are? Throwing axes aren't that big and can be worn on a bandolier. You can easily carry half a dozen and probably more within easy reach. And, if you're facing a dragon, why would you not have gotten them out of your bag of holding before the fight starts? Well, then again, if you limit PC's to a single attack on a readied action, then, I suppose that makes sense. Why bother.

Granted, true, the attacks will be at disadvantage, but, then again, I've been told over and over again how easy it is to gain advantage on attacks, and various buffs will negate that penalty. A 15th level fighter, even with disadvantage, given various buffs and whatnot, shouldn't be missing that often.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hemlock covered this, but, just to repeat, you do not only get one attack on a readied action. You get one ACTION on a readied action. If your read how fighters get their extra attacks, they get extra attacks whenever they take the attack action. They do not gain extra actions. So, I ready an attack action, and, if I'm a fighter or someone who gains extra attacks, then I get all my attacks on that readied action.

I don't mean to be a bore, but to set the record straight: that's actually the opposite of what I said, and of what the Jeremy Crawford quote I provided said. You get only one attack on a readied action, unless the readied action goes off on your turn. (E.g. if you're reacting to someone else's reaction to your movement on your turn.) It's goofy, I know, but maybe justifiable. I've considered houseruling it differently. Certainly you are free to rule otherwise in your game, and if so, weapon-using characters become significantly stronger. Under the RAW, Warlocks are actually better at the counter-sniping game than archers are, because they get all four attacks (or possibly eight with a bonus action, depending on how you interpret readied actions) vs. the fighter only getting one.

 

[KarinsDad]

My players have learnt to quite easily mitigate such DM tactics. Either by cunning use of full cover, utlizing small caves where Dragons don't do well, going Ethereal, or jumping into bags of holding/portable holes.

I love it how DM's are like "Well I'll just do this! Simple!". I don't know about your groups, but my players are smart and they have four brains to my one. The first such fight is usually hard, but if they survive they learn and adapt.

Also depending on your party makeup, breaking concentration isn't that easy. I hit the Bard in my group with a finger of death for 68 damage last night. Guaranteed to ruin concentration right? Nope.
First of all easily made his save (Resilient Con, Standing in Paladins aura). So that's now 34 damage, halved for his concentration check is a DC of 17. +7 con save plus paladin aura = +10, plus Bardic inspiration = easy save.
Oh, and he had Bless on. And if he really needed to make it, inspiration.

So if your Bard is buffed like this, why does he need to jump into a portable hole to avoid attacks to break concentration?

 

[the Jester]

OTOH, both Kamikaze Midget and myself have been playing a 5e conversion of Dragonlance for the past six or so months. We've had numerous dragon encounters with dragons both large and small, in lair and not. Does that mean we get to contribute here?

No.

Dude. DUDE. DUDE. Acting like only one module or series of modules represents 'true D&D' and that the experiences of others are so inapplicable to True D&D that they aren't even allowed to contribute to the thread- as if you got to decide that!- is just ridiculous. I notice that you're getting a lot of push back from a ton of posters, and at least a couple seem to find your posting style insulting. Until this post, I was kind of laughing it off- but dude. DUDE. DUDE! You are so out of line here. I'm sorry, but "I'm right, and you can't talk back" is not helping engender good discussion; it's making you come across as one of those "My way is right, and even if everyone else in the world disagrees, THEY ARE WRONG!!" kinds of guys. This is a discussion forum, not a "Celtavian gets to talk and you can post if you agree" forum.

 

[Psikerlord#]

My takeaway is that the -5/+10 of GWM and Sharpshooter should be once per turn (or even once per round) abilities (10 extra points of damage instead of 30 to 50 extra points of damage).

I prefer to just remove that mechanic and give +1 Str and Dex respectively. But your solution also works.

Ready action is also whack. It should obviously give your whole action, not just a single attack. Not allowing such nerfs all multiattack PCs. We allow multiattack on ready action and we also allow simply delaying your initiative to later in the round. Makes more sense and more balanced.

 

[Psikerlord#]

That's actually the opposite of what I said, and of what the Jeremy Crawford quote I provided said. You get only one attack on a readied action, unless the readied action goes off on your turn. (E.g. if you're reacting to someone else's reaction to your movement on your turn.) It's goofy, I know, but maybe justifiable. I've considered houseruling it differently.

We houseruled whole action for balance reasons. It makes no sense to limit it to one attack.