6 months later: impressions of 4e

ferratus

Adventurer
Well, it is six months to the day when 4e was released, so I'm going to note what my impressions are of the game, and how it is playing out. It is going to be more of a nitpick than a praise list because most of the good things that 4e does were apparent right out of the gate and marketed as a feature of why you should switch. My current level of attitude towards the game is that I feel it is a better play experience than D&D 3.x, but I am also not as excited about 4e as I was six months into 3e.

1) All powers are not created equal. Just like feats, prestige classes, and spells in prior editions, the variables on making an effective power are not always clear. Examples:

I found sleep to be a waste of time, since over the course of 5 combats, with an average of 3-4 foes caught in the burst, I put to sleep one hobgoblin. Sure, the dice were against me, but if you are only 60-70% likely to score a hit, and then only 50% likely to make targets who are hit fall asleep it cuts down on the percentage of foes that are affected. Then, with a 50% chance of waking up every round, it is difficult to get your party stikers into position to do something about it. Contrast this with freezing cloud which instantly kills 60-70% of minion enemies (plus whatever attacks affect them on their initiative) and it becomes a no-brainer. Sleep would only be worth your time if it was errata'd to put minions who you hit to sleep for the entire combat.

Fireball is also a power which you wouldn't bother with. As a minion killer Freezing Cloud is better, and fireball doesn't do enough damage to put a serious dent in more powerful foes. Contrast this with stinking cloud, which can do the initial minion killing just as well as fireball, but can linger round after round for the rest of the encounter as long as the wizard keeps sacrificing minor actions. Sure, Fireball does 2-8 points of damage more initially, but the stinking cloud will get that damage back next round, or the round after that, or the round after that. Fireball simply needs more damage or ongoing 5 fire damage to be worth it.

I'm sure there will be some people who will object that there isn't a problem with these two powers, or have an objection to one of the fixes. Which just goes to show how murky figuring out power balance can be. Luckily, it is easy to errata a power that is not equal to its peers without changing other aspects of the game.

2) You need cards. Perhaps need is too strong a word, but keeping track of powers is much easier when you have cards you can flip over when you expend an encounter or daily power. Plus, it is a rather tactile pleasure to use the cards, in the way it is pleasant to roll dice. What I would really like to see instead of the card decks sold to retailers in March that WotC is planning, would be a card generating utility hooked up to the character generator in DDI. This would allow players to get errata'd versions of powers fairly easily, without having to sift through the errata documents to find the errata that pertains to their powers.

3) Use large combats sparingly. While you could have a session where you fight several combats with a dozen combatants in each combat before you rest for the day, I would advise against it. While you can survive such a day just fine, it would be a long, boring, grinding session. Fighting fewer monsters will still use up some resources, but moves the plot along much faster. More encounters per day means more breaks from combat, which keeps your players fresh.

4) I'm wondering if monsters should have less hit points. While the monster who just won't die is good for dragons, orc chieftains, werewolves and such... I'm not sure if it is good for every monster. I don't know about the rest of you, but my 4e combat experience seems to be that the party knows that the battle is won, but it drags on simply because the hp has to be whittled down for another 3-4 rounds. As a DM and a player I have had combats hand-waved as "finished" to the relief of everybody involved. I understand why monsters have the hp they do, because when DMing 3.x there is nothing more annoying than monsters not getting their cool powers off before the PC's nuke them. I think however, that they might have gone overboard, because too often lots of hp remain even after the monster's encounter abilities have been expended.

5) The DM is the enemy. Since combat in prior editions was about maximizing the damage in an attack you dealt, and reducing the amount of damage you took in, you often had to pull your punches for certain characters and classes. For example, targeting a wizard with a brutish monster was bad form, because he simply couldn't deal with the punishment that the monster can dish out. In the end then, the DM was your friend trying to help you tell the story rather than an adversary because to be a true advesary he often had to be unfair.

I have never needed to pull my punches in 4e. I'm supposed to target a wizard with my brutes, my fighters with my skirmishers, my rangers and warlocks with my lurkers and artillery, and all the other things that would have been considered poor form in prior editions. The players have been given the tools to work together to do something about it. The defenders are supposed to keep the soldiers and brutes off the strikers and controllers, the strikers are supposed to take out skirmishers and artillery. If your wizard gets mauled by a brute it isn't the DM's fault anymore, its the defender's and the wizard's fault for not working out the right strategy and leaving the wizard exposed. Likewise, my monsters work together to try to disrupt and counter the strategy of the player characters. The adversarial nature of 4e combat means that DM is your enemy rather than your friend and that's the way it should be. I have never enjoyed being behind the DM's screen so much in 17 years of playing D&D.

6) Magical items are boring. Magical items haven't been truly magical since 2e. The item that perhaps best exemplifies this is the gauntlets of ogre power. If I get gauntlets of ogre power, I want the strength of an ogre, not the ability to do +5 damage once a day. I don't care if you need to make it an artifact, or an epic level item. Aside from inappropriate names however, there is also the fact that magical items don't have a sense of mystery or surprise anymore, since they follow the rules more judiciously than even powers do.

7. Artifacts are awesome. Here is where 4e has improved on its predecessors. Artifacts have all the wonky abilities you want to give it (eyeballed to be slightly inappropriate to the proper tier), and if you goof up its power level that's okay because it will leave the game in 1-3 levels. You layer them with curses and powers, and the result is magnificent. This contrasts favourably with artifacts in prior editions which you could only introduce 1 or 2 artifacts in a campaign, and since they were of a slightly inappropriate power (because they were artifacts) you had to make using them so detrimental that players would never think of using it, and thus it was only for a glorified plot device to get them to try and destroy it.

8. Skill Challenges aren't working right. I think this is a universal consensus among 4e fans and detractors alike. Aside from getting the math wrong on what difficulty the skills should be, there are problems with the fact that you need far less failures than successes, which means that despite things going well you end up with a failure if one of your players hasn't got the right skill set for the challenge. Signs of how to fix it are already appearant however. Giving partial credit for each successful skill checks rather than a pure pass/fail for skill challenges are one example. Having various problems attached to failed skill checks involved in the skill challenges are another. I do think however, that the underlying idea of giving everyone something to do in the roleplaying side of the game through skill challenges is genius. It just needs more depth and mechanics. Ideally, it should be as well thought out as the combat chapter in the PHB.

I think that's largely my critique of 4e, six months into the game. Since the thread is here, you might want to post your own critiques that I haven't mentioned, or whether I'm on target with my 8 observations.
 
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Just briefly:

1. The game plays substantially differently than it reads.

2. Skill challenges are bitchin', but require judicious amounts of dm tweaking to really run well.

3. The 4eism that everyone should know everything about what's going on with them (e.g. marking/power effects, skill challenge rules, etc) is good- most of the time. But sometimes it isn't- f'rexample, you might want to run a skill challenge that the pcs don't realize that they're in (figuring out that they're being misdirected by gnomish illusions).
 

What I would really like to see instead of the card decks sold to retailers in March that WotC is planning, would be a card generating utility hooked up to the character generator in DDI.
The Character Builder already generate cards as part of the character sheet.
 

My 2cp

Overall opinion: Agreed. Now that the honeymoon phase is over, I'm not as Rahh4EISMYNEWGODAND3EWUZTHEDEVILRAHH!! as I was before.

1) Agreed. I know that it appears that they tried to make all powers equal, but some are just better. Most of the time, a character only has a 50-ish% chance of hitting an enemy of equal level. Powers with nothing on a miss are a dead end, especially if they target Fort or AC.

2) Agreed, but I did that with 3E so this was nothing new for me.

3) Agreed.. Somewhat. You can use minions to beef up an encounter. My group is fighting duergar and their slaves currently. There are no minions in sight, and most fights are against 5 or 6 baddies. Each combat takes about 45 minutes (especially since duergar casters, which there seems to be a lot of, can do so much delaying tactics) and becomes really boring..

4) Agreed.

5) Disagree. It's a matter of perspective. Some would say this is how it always has been.

6) Disagree. If you get items with properties, its kewl. And now that +1 = +1d6 on a crit, it adds more "oomph" to those basic weapons with plusses.

7) Can't say. I have yet to get one in a game.

8) Disagree. I've done skill challenges and have not run into the problem you describe. In fact, I have yet to see a failed skill challenge.
 

5) The DM is the enemy. Since combat in prior editions was about maximizing the damage in an attack you dealt, and reducing the amount of damage you took in, you often had to pull your punches for certain characters and classes. For example, targeting a wizard with a brutish monster was bad form, because he simply couldn't deal with the punishment that the monster can dish out. In the end then, the DM was your friend trying to help you tell the story rather than an adversary because to be a true advesary he often had to be unfair.

Wow, this is... interesting...

I've run D&D for 24 years now, it never occurred to me *not* to attack the Wizard! :D

Seriously, I've found in 3e the Wizard is often the toughest PC to kill, with his magical defenses and tendency to run away. Easiest is the raging barbarian, then the Fighter, then the Rogue. Clerics are difficult - good AC, spells & healing.

I think if I told my players "I'm your friend trying to help you tell the story" they'd laugh. Then they'd hit me.

My current 3e D&D campaign:
sessions - 9
permanently dead PCs - 8 (3 arcane caster, 5 warrior, 0 divine caster, 0 rogue)
 

After 6 months of side-trek 4e try out sessions, we finally got together to restart the old 3e campaign with converted PCs and such. I was happy to see that despite some aesthetic gripes (which I share, there needs to be an "old school art" deluxe edition with b/w erol otus/elmore art), my players were enthusiastic about how the game played and the new incarnations of their characters.
Basically, aside from issues with the art direction, I really like the new edition. Here's my blow by blow:

1) I agree about Sleep. Making an auto effect on Minions is a good idea.

2) The Char Gen takes care of customized, plus a few more things like magic items, Action Pt, and basic stats (which I suppose should be passed to the DM during play)

3) I like magic items in this edition. I like that there are less of them and I like that they do things. As always, they need a name and a description. I agree that the artifact rules are really good. I've converted two major magic items in the campaign into heroic tier artifacts. One gripe is, as my player said, "What are these doing in the PHB? You should KNOW you're not supposed to look at this."

4) I'm wondering if monsters should have less hit points. I'm wondering the same thing. Just might do it, but increase monsters' damage by a die. The only thing holding me back is...

5) Game balance: As I drove home last weekend I realized for the first time in years I hadn't fudged a single die roll. No worries at all. And I was going after the softer targets. That's really nice. So, while I'd like to lower hps, and I think in that case damage should go up to compensate, I wonder if that will blow my sweetly balanced game.

6) Skill challenges. I've only run one of these. I agree that more in depth rules help. As it is I had to go into free-form abstract RP mode for the challenge, which is a slight disconnect, but actually really really fun. just a bit of a high wire act.
 

To expand on my "DM is the enemy bit" perhaps a story as to why things have changed is in order.

We have two 3rd level characters, a wizard and a fighter walking down a forest road. They fail their spot checks, and an orc charges out of the brush. It is equal distance to the fighter and the wizard.

The logical thing for the orc to do, I think we can both agree, is take out the squishy magic user before turning your attention to the fighter. He has spells that will disable you, but you can probably survive a blow from the fighter. However, since the orc is likely to one-hit kill the wizard, the DM would probably be seen as a <impolite phrase> rather than an adversary. In 4e though, a wizard is able to survive one or two blows from a monster.

If the wizard survives the first blow, the fighter will come to his aid. In 3e, it is competely up to how dickish the DM wants to be whether he finishes off the wizard or turns to deal with the fighter. The wizard would have done a full retreat in either edition, but the orc can charge and hit him anyway. It is only in 4e however, that the fighter can do something about it, by preventing the orc from moving and gaining free attacks if the orc doesn't direct his attacks at the fighter.

In 4e, I'm an enemy, but not an <impolite phrase> if I pursue the wizard, because the players have the tools to do something about it.
 
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Here's a nitpick which also hurts my enjoyment of the game (when I do get to play)....

Because the Defenses of everyone scales up along with the to-hit, usually the PCs have to roll better than average to hit. It's very rare that a PC can roll a 7 or 6 and expect a hit with a power.

This results in occasional disasters. Like the one recorded during the Penny Arcade session. If everyone rolls at the table badly, and the DM rolls decently, it can result in TPKs or things going south quite quickly.

A friend of mine said that to counter-act this, he's allowed his PC to stockpile their action points. Apparently this works pretty well.
 

My experience with 4e wizards is that the ability of the wizard to do damage and move monsters around is inversely proportional to the distance between the monster and the wizard. I sometimes think the wizard in my group specifically separates himself from the party so that he can get more chances to use thunderwave. Its pretty impressive watching the bodies fly away from him.
 

Very interesting post, and a fun read.


But this:
5) The DM is the enemy. Since combat in prior editions was about maximizing the damage in an attack you dealt, and reducing the amount of damage you took in, you often had to pull your punches for certain characters and classes. For example, targeting a wizard with a brutish monster was bad form, because he simply couldn't deal with the punishment that the monster can dish out. In the end then, the DM was your friend trying to help you tell the story rather than an adversary because to be a true advesary he often had to be unfair.

I have never needed to pull my punches in 4e. I'm supposed to target a wizard with my brutes, my fighters with my skirmishers, my rangers and warlocks with my lurkers and artillery, and all the other things that would have been considered poor form in prior editions. The players have been given the tools to work together to do something about it. The defenders are supposed to keep the soldiers and brutes off the strikers and controllers, the strikers are supposed to take out skirmishers and artillery. If your wizard gets mauled by a brute it isn't the DM's fault anymore,
has me totally scratching my head. I recognize the individual words (they're in English), but nothing else... I simply do not understand the above.

Does. Not. Compute.
 

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