6 months later: impressions of 4e

[filthgrinder]

A good thread. For me, a lot of what I hoped would happen with 4E has not emerged, which has saddened me a bit. I tend to think of each edition as an opportunity to bring new people into D&D without the baggage that years of books and supplements bring. To that end, I'd say 4E has been a bust: no attempt has been made to market the product to people outside the game's base, when, arguably, many changes have been made to gameplay to make the game more friendly to these folks. That makes me sad.

Just some anecdotal evidence, so make from it what you will, but 4e brought me back, and gain new players (everyone in my group). I stopped playing around '96, and then played one session back when 3e came out. I hadn't played since then. However, I saw stuff about 4e on regular websites I visit, so I took a look. I read the preview books and I was hooked. I liked the changes so I got back into D&D. With that I brought my five players to D&D. So 4E did bring in some new players...

I've also noticed that players need to have a bit better grasp on the rules, by and large, than they did in 3e. This is only a little surprising to me. A slow player can make a whole combat drag.

Definitely yes.

 

[LostSoul]

For my part, I'm liking 4e more and more the more I play it. And, on a somewhat related note, 4e is an absolute dream to design/write for. It's really re-ignited my design fire.

This is how I feel too. The game seems to be getting better as we're going along. I think this is because we're getting more used to each other (it's a new group), I'm getting more used to running 4E, and the players are getting more used to the system.

Thunderspire Labyrinth probably deserves some credit for that, too.

I'm looking forward to what happens next. I think we might play in the Nentir Vale-sandbox for a few levels, depending on what the group wants to do.

 

[S'mon]

To expand on my "DM is the enemy bit" perhaps a story as to why things have changed is in order.

We have two 3rd level characters, a wizard and a fighter walking down a forest road. They fail their spot checks, and an orc charges out of the brush. It is equal distance to the fighter and the wizard.

The logical thing for the orc to do, I think we can both agree, is take out the squishy magic user before turning your attention to the fighter. He has spells that will disable you, but you can probably survive a blow from the fighter. However, since the orc is likely to one-hit kill the wizard, the DM would probably be seen as a <impolite phrase> rather than an adversary. In 4e though, a wizard is able to survive one or two blows from a monster.

If the wizard survives the first blow, the fighter will come to his aid. In 3e, it is competely up to how dickish the DM wants to be whether he finishes off the wizard or turns to deal with the fighter. The wizard would have done a full retreat in either edition, but the orc can charge and hit him anyway. It is only in 4e however, that the fighter can do something about it, by preventing the orc from moving and gaining free attacks if the orc doesn't direct his attacks at the fighter.

In 4e, I'm an enemy, but not an <impolite phrase> if I pursue the wizard, because the players have the tools to do something about it.

The 3e Fighter can take an attack of opportunity on the orc if it passes him to get at the Wizard.

I've always done it not as "Shall I be a dick?" but as "What would this orc logically do?". It sees an armoured man and an unarmoured man. If it's a high level orc hired to kill the wizard, it attacks him. But the typical orc will attack the bigger perceived threat - the armoured warrior, not the commoner beside him! Likewise, when deciding if the orc pauses to coup de gras the wizard - in the typical orc's world, felled opponents can be finished off at leisure. No way will it waste a round on a CDG. Contrarily, if the orc has seen the party Cleric heal a PC back onto their feat, THEN it will start CDGing the fallen.

 

[Jack99]

For my part, I'm liking 4e more and more the more I play it. And, on a somewhat related note, 4e is an absolute dream to design/write for. It's really re-ignited my design fire.

And some of us a very grateful for that.. So, when is the next egg coming?

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

In the OBE pipeline, Fred and Jonathan Walton have a neat product coming out next week called Cultures. It's sort of a PC race "tweaker" founded on interesting ways to look at racial norms.

The full version of Rob's Witch Doctor class is nearing completion.

And the one I'm most excited about: The first installment of Poisoncraft for 4e, which will be a feature on the syrallax, including a couple of versions of the monster, a new poison, and a full encounter. We've also got some exciting news related to the product that I can't announce yet.

 

[darjr]

As far as advertising goes, the cute little stunt the D&D podcast did with the PVP guys is paying dividends. They've gone off and are publicizing their own campaign.

Apologies for the aside.

As far as the nth month mark goes, I'm really having fun with 4e. I'm reaping rewards from the growing player base as well. And the idea of a core set with classic art... 1e art style? Yea, I'd like that very much.

 

[FireLance]

A friend of mine said that to counter-act this, he's allowed his PC to stockpile their action points. Apparently this works pretty well.

This sparked off an idea which may be my next houserule: A character who is bloodied may spend a second action point in an encounter, and a third after he has been brought to less than 0 hp. Less potentially overwhelming than being able to spend all your action points, but it gives the PCs more options when the chips are down. Thanks!

 

[Ravilah]

So far, the biggest problem I'm having is that it's more like a well-oiled machine than a mystical contraption. I don't brim with creativity to the same extent as some folks in this forum, so I have to work harder to make encounters exciting when the PCs are harder to threaten. Perhaps in the old days players feared being ganked, but now I worry more about boring them. I suppose any set of rules requires creativity to bring to life effectively. Before you had to avoid focusing fire on the wizard; now I have to give monsters reasons to retreat sooner or go out in a blaze of glory.

That said, I still think 4e is the right edition for me. The single biggest think I love about it is that I can run an entire session without cracking a single book. As a player, the non-spellcasting classes finally seem more interesting to play, and I'm glad that every class will always have something to do in most encounters. I'm not sure yet about whether the ritual system is enough to make me not miss the rich spell lists of the 3e spellcaster.

Wow! At first I thought, "Did I post this?" Your experience matches mine almost perfectly (except, perhaps, that I started out with reservations rather than expectations). I'm especially with you in regards to the idea that PCs are harder to threaten and that the "rich spell lists" of 3e are rather missed.

Here's the funny thing for me. I have just not enjoyed DMing 4e as much as 3e (and 90% of what do is DM). I have tried to get my head around what my hang ups are with 4e, but I guess I'm just not sufficiently metacognitive. I do love the greater simplicity, the skill system (though not skill challenges), and the fact that players are never rendered useless. But, dang it, it just feels more like...like...scrolling down my power menu in a Final Fantasy game!

However, 4e is the first system I have ever enjoyed playing. Ever.

Fancy that.

 

[vansung]

I have been playing 4e since it came out and just recently switched to the Pathfinder RPG!

After playing around 10 game sessions of 4e, we always left the game table and felt like something was missing. For us 4e is a good game, but it just doesn't seem like the game we grew up with and love. Pathfinder RPG seems to be best of both worlds for us right now. In the beginning when 4e came out, I was totally into it and loved what changes they made to the game - on paper it looked great. Through actual play is where I was a little let down. I am really impressed what Paizo is doing and very impressed with the game design, especially the Adventure Paths.

If you would have told me that I would be writing this now back in June, I would have never believed you!

Keep up the great work Paizo, you got a new loyal customer

 

[Jack99]

In the OBE pipeline, Fred and Jonathan Walton have a neat product coming out next week called Cultures. It's sort of a PC race "tweaker" founded on interesting ways to look at racial norms.

On the core races? Either way, sounds interesting.

The full version of Rob's Witch Doctor class is nearing completion.

Finally! Been waiting a long time for that one.

And the one I'm most excited about: The first installment of Poisoncraft for 4e, which will be a feature on the syrallax, including a couple of versions of the monster, a new poison, and a full encounter. We've also got some exciting news related to the product that I can't announce yet.

Ah. I thought poisoncraft would be one big book.