7 to 8 pc's of 16th Lvl Avg.; Opinions on what CR Red dragon to throw at the group
- Thread starter Jaxom
- Start date
If you use BADD tactics an Adult would be a fight, and a Mature Adult would be a struggle with perhaps some deaths. More risks a TPK. But it depends on the factors listed by gfunk.
If the dragon is asleep in it's lair and after waking up just goes straight into melee (stereotypical behavior), they will butcher it.
If the dragon is asleep in it's lair and after waking up just goes straight into melee (stereotypical behavior), they will butcher it.
Jaxom
First Post
1) Party Makeup?
There is a Paladin/Knight of the Chalice (specializes in fighting demons), Fighter/Barbarian, Monk/Sorcerer, Cleric, Cleric, Fighter/Wizard, Wizard/Incantatrix, and Bard/Virtuoso.
2) Is the party aware they will be fighting a dragon?
Yes.
3) Will the party encounter the dragon in its lair? If not, where?
The dragon is not in its lair, he is in a place in the positive energy plane where he is currently feeding on souls. The players know exactly where he is and he knows they're there as well. The only thing the dragon doesn't know is when exactly the party is going to come and get him out of his location, so he'll probably only get a few rounds of prep time. The party obviously will get a little more prepping time once they figure out how to get into the location the dragon is now holed up in.
The location in which the battle will take place is somewhat confining to the dragon IMO, only 100 ft. high and approximately 130 ft. diameter across. Not alot of space for arial manuevering so I think it will be more of a close range fighting and spells with concentration checks.
There is a Paladin/Knight of the Chalice (specializes in fighting demons), Fighter/Barbarian, Monk/Sorcerer, Cleric, Cleric, Fighter/Wizard, Wizard/Incantatrix, and Bard/Virtuoso.
2) Is the party aware they will be fighting a dragon?
Yes.
3) Will the party encounter the dragon in its lair? If not, where?
The dragon is not in its lair, he is in a place in the positive energy plane where he is currently feeding on souls. The players know exactly where he is and he knows they're there as well. The only thing the dragon doesn't know is when exactly the party is going to come and get him out of his location, so he'll probably only get a few rounds of prep time. The party obviously will get a little more prepping time once they figure out how to get into the location the dragon is now holed up in.
The location in which the battle will take place is somewhat confining to the dragon IMO, only 100 ft. high and approximately 130 ft. diameter across. Not alot of space for arial manuevering so I think it will be more of a close range fighting and spells with concentration checks.
In light of the information you provided, I recommend an Old Red Dragon (CR 19) with the Half-Fiend (not Fiendish) template. The Fiendish template offers very little to the dragon in terms of abilities and will simply inflate his CR.
The spell-like abilities granted by Half-Fiends is quite formidable. With a few rounds prep time, I might have the dragon summon a Gelugon to keep the party busy for a round or two. If hasted, the Dragon can use his partial action to cast Blasphemy (SLA) and do a full attack action on the party without fear of retaliation for that round (unless they have good SR).
Also, filling the room with Darkness and/or Deeper Darkness is a good idea. An Anti-Magic Field around the Dragon is good as well (though several may be required given his size).
<added>
Another good startegy would be for the Dragon to cast Unhallow on a large area of the chamber. Perhaps the spell tied to it could be Deeper Darkness, Dimensional Anchor, or Silence.
The spell-like abilities granted by Half-Fiends is quite formidable. With a few rounds prep time, I might have the dragon summon a Gelugon to keep the party busy for a round or two. If hasted, the Dragon can use his partial action to cast Blasphemy (SLA) and do a full attack action on the party without fear of retaliation for that round (unless they have good SR).
Also, filling the room with Darkness and/or Deeper Darkness is a good idea. An Anti-Magic Field around the Dragon is good as well (though several may be required given his size).
<added>
Another good startegy would be for the Dragon to cast Unhallow on a large area of the chamber. Perhaps the spell tied to it could be Deeper Darkness, Dimensional Anchor, or Silence.
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16th level PCs...
8 16TH LEVEL PCs!!!!.....
Nothing short of a Great Wyrm would be a challenge to that many high level PC's. Jesus, you have some of the most powerful PrC's (Incantrix, Virtuoso) and you have 2 clerics.
Even caught by surprise, the group should be able to wipe out anything less than wyrm status.
Even the Great Wyrm is as simple as harm until it works, and then magic missile until it works. That should take less than 3 rounds. Given 2 clerics and 2 wizards.
Think about this:
Round 1
Incantrix casts wall of force around him and other wizard. Other wizard casts mass haste.
Cleric casts harm twice
if neither works, other cleric casts harm twice.
Fighter wizard readies magic missile when wall of force goes down and casts magic missile of his own and casts quickened magic missile.
Round 2
Wall of force dismissed and readied action to cast it again as soon as magic missile and quickened magic missile go off.
That alone should kill anything with spell resistance and takes 1 to 2 rounds depending on whether or not there was surprise.
Even if the Dragon surprises them or they surprise each other the incantrix should have contingency set up and the clerics should have some greater glyphs. Unless the dragon knows that the incantrix is a wizard to begin with he won't know who to focus on to eliminate the spell threat first.
8 16TH LEVEL PCs!!!!.....
Nothing short of a Great Wyrm would be a challenge to that many high level PC's. Jesus, you have some of the most powerful PrC's (Incantrix, Virtuoso) and you have 2 clerics.
Even caught by surprise, the group should be able to wipe out anything less than wyrm status.
Even the Great Wyrm is as simple as harm until it works, and then magic missile until it works. That should take less than 3 rounds. Given 2 clerics and 2 wizards.
Think about this:
Round 1
Incantrix casts wall of force around him and other wizard. Other wizard casts mass haste.
Cleric casts harm twice
if neither works, other cleric casts harm twice.
Fighter wizard readies magic missile when wall of force goes down and casts magic missile of his own and casts quickened magic missile.
Round 2
Wall of force dismissed and readied action to cast it again as soon as magic missile and quickened magic missile go off.
That alone should kill anything with spell resistance and takes 1 to 2 rounds depending on whether or not there was surprise.
Even if the Dragon surprises them or they surprise each other the incantrix should have contingency set up and the clerics should have some greater glyphs. Unless the dragon knows that the incantrix is a wizard to begin with he won't know who to focus on to eliminate the spell threat first.
green slime
First Post
You forget the ability of dragons to add character levels?
Or the ability of Epic Druids to shapechange into Dragons?
It could quite conceivably be a 35th level Druid shapechanged into a juvenile Dragon...
The object is to surprise and delight the players with an interesting, winnable encounter, not splatter them or the dragon within two minutes of game time. What is the rest of the session supposed to be? A memorable tea party with the mayor?
I bet the mayor dies before he rolls for initiative.
Or the ability of Epic Druids to shapechange into Dragons?
It could quite conceivably be a 35th level Druid shapechanged into a juvenile Dragon...
The object is to surprise and delight the players with an interesting, winnable encounter, not splatter them or the dragon within two minutes of game time. What is the rest of the session supposed to be? A memorable tea party with the mayor?
I bet the mayor dies before he rolls for initiative.
Yeah, Harm as written can nearly kill any monster in the game. This is blatantly obvious, and we've done that discussion to death.Gaiden said:
Many DMs have house-ruled Harm, or eliminated it entirely. In such cases, it's no good against dragons anymore. In cases where it hasn't been house-ruled, it is the single most devastating threat to powerful monsters, so anything with intelligence will protect itself against the spell.
Point is, if the Harm/MM combo works all the time, then it works on any and all monsters, regardless of relative PC level. If it doesn't work, then it's not a tactic to be considered. Either way, it can be safely ignored for purposes of CR estimates.
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