7 to 8 pc's of 16th Lvl Avg.; Opinions on what CR Red dragon to throw at the group

[DeBhaal]

To tell the truth, yes I think its enough. The adventure is designed for four 18th level characters, you have that equivilent, roughly.

Yeah, he is pretty badass, play him smart, tone him down a bit(only if you need to to prevent a TPK from the start), maybe, and use his buddy right, and youll do fine.

 

[Jaxom]

The only question I have then is why the CR 27 for a party of 18 avg. level. Is the advantage the area gives players (space, fast heal...) countering the CR and if so why not drop the CR to reflect any disadvantages? Plus figuring out XP for the encounter is a challenge in itself, even if I tone it down to a CR 24 or so.

 

[green slime]

Hello Gaiden!

I'm glad you don't accuse me of DMing fairly. I don't. I DM to challenge the players to their limits, to provide interesting and challenging encounters. In a climatic BBEG fight, the battle will be just that; climatic. The players expect to be challenged, not just win by some faulty game design. If it is all about harm and magic missile, what is the point of the adventure? I can just hand out treasure, without the boring uninteresting encounters, that all go down within 2 rounds anyway. The DM's job isn't to be fair, but to provide an interesting, challenging adventure, with consideration for the players desires, and their characters interests.

Jaxom has pointed out the house rule they use for harm. That puts paid to that tactic. But there are other similar tactics for 18th level characters, or 8 16th level characters. This is where it becomes imperative to know the style of play your players prefer.

It comes down to whether it is the sole encounter, or the end of a long string of encounters. No Great Red Wyrm in my game lounges around in solitude, half-asleep, begging adventurers to come and tear its throat open. So yes, I believe I could give even 8 18th level characters a run for their money, even playing by the "rules".

And what is wrong with causing so much death and mayhem with an encounter that the party has to flee in panic? Knowing when they are beat and escaping to lick your wounds is a vital part of the adventure story. You assume the Dragon can't know a thing, because then the party would loose. I make no such assumption. The Dragon is allowed to be prepared, and the party better assume it is prepared for them, or they will be facing TPK! Such is adventuring life at such lofty levels. Dragons of such great age would immensely enjoy playing mind games with the players, long before they get to physically encounter the Dragon.

I assume that they Dragon knows about the party, because:

Jaxom answered:
...The only thing the dragon doesn't know is when exactly the party is going to come and get him out of his location, so he'll probably only get a few rounds of prep time.

Which to me suggests the dragon has all the time in the world to prepare traps, rally forces, and organise a defense. It knows: WHO is coming, WHY they are coming, WHAT the roles of the party members are (Cleric, Mage, etc), THE GOALS of the party, HOW they are equipped.

This suggests to me a very challenging encounter indeed. Given that the dragon may also have a few rounds of prep time before the appearance of the party to cast short duration spells, well then...

Jaxom:

In order to answer your question, I'd say it is precisely to provide a challenging encounter to what is likely to be a VERY well prepared party. 4 18th level characters, that are aware they are going against a Red Dragon are indeed a force to be reckoned with. The trick is to avoid the walk over of either party or Dragon.

 

[Gaiden]

Gey - edit - yeah, meant to say Hey, but I thought I would leave it in for comic relief - edit - Green Slime

Thanks for not taking offense at my lack of assumptions. It sounds to me like you would be a very fair DM - I do not equate fairness with niceness. Rather, I would consider the following an unfair DM:

I plan an attack on said Dragon with a special type of Dexterity reducing poison and the DM decides that this dragon randomly has immunity to poisons - AFTER I HAVE INITIATED THE ATTACK and not before hand.

The only thing the dragon doesn't know is when exactly the party is going to come and get him out of his location, so he'll probably only get a few rounds of prep time.

I obviously did eat the"stupid breakfast"

One thing I would say is that sometimes planning an attack can be as much satisfaction as the climactic battle. Seriously, think about a group whose wizard spends the requisite amount of time to enchant all of the fighter's main weapons with ghost touch, just so that they are effective in ghost form. Think about sitting around the strategy table planning on exactly what everyone will do in the different circumstances possible. To me that is a lot of fun. Grant it, both the planning/1 round kill AND the climactic battles have their merits - I will not even attempt to say that as a player I don't enjoy those close battles - especially when they are the climactic ones.

I will reiterate the TPK risk though. I make no assumption that the Dragon can't know anything about the PC's, just that if it does then a TPK will result. Jaxom, if you play the Dragon right, and it does in fact have all the knowledge about the party, there really should be no way that the party can win - even if the Dragon is a much younger Dragon, like an adult. I have both DMed and played against very powerful dragons and know from experience.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I wouldn't stick to CR very closely at higher levels. Furthermore, the setting would change the EL.

A dragon in it's lair rates a lower EL than it's CR indicates. A dragon that catches a party in a random encounter (the party isn't prepared) would rate a higher EL (which means that dragons have CRs slightly higher than expected).

 

[warhookdm]

Speaking as a DM which has already thrown 3 dragons at a party of fairly high level (8 PC's with avg. level of 14) at diferent points (and am building them toward a fourth), remember a couple things: 1) if the dragon can't fly, he is severely limited, and dragons don't have good manueverability. I would either change the dimensions of the room somewhat, or make sure the dragon has Globe of Invulnerability, Cat's Grace, Endurance, and Bull's Strength up. Then add in Shield, and Haste for an add'l +11 to AC. And I would probably go with a Very Old or Ancient Red, no template.
2) If you set-up the dragon with unlimited room (outside) unless he is a Young Adult or less, you can cause a TPK with smart moves. The dragon just stays out of melee range until he's dropped most of the PC's with breath weapon attacks, and magic missile spells, etc.
3) Spell Resistance of big reds effectively render them nearly invulnerable to spell attacks. I nearly caused a TPK with a 16th level Drow Cleric (SR 27). He took out 4 of 8 PC's and had the rest at 25 - 50 % of HP, depleted of spells, etc. The PC party had an average level of 14. The BBEG NPC's consisted of 2 L12 fighter types, a L15 Sorcerer, and the aforementioned Drow. The battle lasted about 20 rounds, and took several hours to resolve.

 

[Archer]

With large parties you want to increase the number of monsters, not the difficulty of a single monster. Two adult dragons are better than one old dragon for 8 people.

Are they going into the battle immune to fire and fear? They all have +2 or better weapons (+3 vs Wyrm)? 150 pts of stoneskin each? Using bear's heart for 16d4 temp hps repeatedly?

If all the above is true then they can handle a pretty tough dragon, Wyrm or higher. They can cast (mass) heal several times and the fighters probably have 200 hp, maybe 240. Add 150 for stone skin and 40 for each casting of bear's heart they should be good for quite some time.

 

[DeBhaal]

Not to question the ability or merit of all the suggestions ... but since this is a published adventure, and I have read it(hoping to DM it sometime). Most of the suggestions posed, are not aplicable.
Room is limited size, very few people in the room, (I dont give exact number because as Jaxom said, his players may read this thread) Summoning isnt allowed, (on the plane in general) The dragon doesnt know everything about the party, he may know some from being told such by his followers, but the only reason he has warning of them showing up is attunement, and high Listen skill check.

Its on the Positive Energy Plane, so everyone has Fast Healing, which is dangerous there.
The Dragon is already Very Old or Ancient, and has the Half-Fiend template on it already.

 

[DeBhaal]

Originally posted by JaxomThe only question I have then is why the CR 27 for a party of 18 avg. level. Is the advantage the area gives players (space, fast heal...) countering the CR and if so why not drop the CR to reflect any disadvantages? Plus figuring out XP for the encounter is a challenge in itself, even if I tone it down to a CR 24 or so.

The CR, is to show the challenge of the monster, the EL is posted at the before you meet him, EL is 27 also, to show the lack of space being benifical to the Dragon, and other things going agaisnt him.

There is a section on tactics to be used for Ashardalon, so jsut follow those and you'll do fine.

 

[AuraSeer]

AAGH! I wish I hadn't read that post/

DeBhaal, next time you're going to reveal information about the end of a module, how about including a spoiler warning first?