A bit tired of people knocking videogames...

[Dannager]

It's not "automatically insulting", by which I would guess you mean that everyone finds it insulting in this context (?).

But if you frequent these boards, you should know that some people (certainly not all) find it insulting. You can go ahead, ignore that fact and continue to use the term knowing full well that some people will be insulted by it. Or, you can avoid such terminology (which other people also find frustratingly vague) to enable conversation rather than argument (in the everyday sense of the word).

You may not understand why they find it insulting, but you've been told often enough that they do. Whether you believe that these people should be insulted by the term, the fact remains that some will be. You can choose to ignore this fact; just be prepared to face the consequences.

This is, I think, a pretty solid summary of the entire point of this thread.

 

[BryonD]

I would be really interested in examining how many of the posters here - defending the idea that their method of communication isn't automatically derisive or insulting and that they should therefore be given a pass - are the same posters who have in the past decried WotC's initial 4e marketing campaign as insulting and derisive despite the many times they've been told that said campaign was not automatically insulting and derisive, and backed it up with many examples.

I mean, clearly they expect you to be able to infer the intent behind their posts (especially when that intent is not obvious), while at the same time they pretend that it's not possible to do exactly that when it comes to anything WotC puts out.

First, I'd point out that WotC saying "these are bad thing about 3E and this is why 4E is superior" is radically different than saying "those things which are perfectly fine in a video game are not as good in a table top role playing game". It is very much an apples and oranges comparison.

But, since you clearly seem to think it was a worthwhile comparison... Are you now saying that being bothered by WotC's statements was reasonable? Are you saying that being bothered by "videogamey" is unreasonable?

 

[BryonD]

You may not understand why they find it insulting, but you've been told often enough that they do. Whether you believe that these people should be insulted by the term, the fact remains that some will be. You can choose to ignore this fact; just be prepared to face the consequences.

So from now on I can just declare anything you say to be insulting and you will refrain from ever saying it again? Good to know.

 

[Mark CMG]

This is, I think, a pretty solid summary of the entire point of this thread.

Naw. This isn't the N word or the C word or the R word or anything that rises to the level of meriting that sort of censorship, self or otherwise. This isn't a case, except in some isolated instances of misuse (which I agree should be eliminated) where someone is purposefully trying to attack another person's sensibilities. It then becomes a baby and bathwater situation where a relative few might be overreacting and broadbrushing a commonly accepted shorthand that in limited situations gets abused. Asking others to understand the situation and avoid hurtful uses is fair enough, asking for broad abolishment is another thing entirely.

 

[MrMyth]

Is it wrong to believe video games are mindless and inferior to RPGs? This is an opinion. Why are you bothered by someone else's opinion? How can you go through life if other people being dismissive of something you like BOTHERS you? I hate beans. Should bean lovers be upset?

Is it wrong for someone to have such an opinion? Well, probably not - I might disagree with it, but that doesn't mean someone can't believe it. But, at the same time, offering such opinion seems to merit the sort of concern expressed at the start of this thread. In the same way that, I imagine, members of this community would find themselves bothered if this hobby (and its players) was treated with similar disdain. Especially if they feel those stereotypes are erroneous, and want to correct what they see as misconceptions.

You're cool with doing that for "simulationist" but not OK with doing that for "videogamey."

Sounds like a classic double-standard to me.

Because the problem with the second is that it is the only avenue of conversation. <snip>

No it isn't.

You could launch into how TTRPGs & CRPGs have been cross pollenating for years; how you've gotten good things from computer games for your TTRPGs, and so forth, much like you say you could do for simulationsm.

Except that those comments could have absolutely nothing to do with the original point. That's the problem, again, with how vague the term is. He says he is disappointed at how "videogamey" a game is, and I say I find the game's online support (in the form of digital tools) a good thing - and he's confused, because he was complaining about the game using various terms taken from a popular MMO.

What does it mean to be "videogamey"? We've seen countless different possibilities in this thread. Many of them having little to do with video games themselves, and reflecting elements found in RPGs long before video games had a real presence! And the elements that are fundamental to video games - namely, being played on a computer, console or video unit of some kind - are pretty much never the actual concern of the criticism.

Whereas when someone says that are disappointed at how "simulationist" a game is, if I start discussing the value of simulationism in the game, or the pros and cons of it, etc... I am addressing the actual point he is making.

But until someone gives proper context or a more complete explanation about their complaints over something being "videogamey", I really have next to no idea as to what their concern actually is.

 

[Fifth Element]

So from now on I can just declare anything you say to be insulting and you will refrain from ever saying it again? Good to know.

Reductio ad absurdum is something else to avoid if you prefer conversation to argument.

 

[Fifth Element]

It then becomes a baby and bathwater situation where a relative few might be overreacting and broadbrushing a commonly accepted shorthand that in limited situations gets abused.

This is another point of the thread. It would be one thing if we were avoiding a useful descriptive term because some find it insulting. But, as discussed, when someone says "videogamey", the response comes "what do you mean by videogamey?" We're not going to lose precision by avoiding this term; we're likely to gain it.

So, (A) some people find it insulting and (B) it tends to be vague and raises more questions than it answers. I'm not sure what we'd be losing here.

 

[Oryan77]

You may not understand why they find it insulting

I'm sure most of us understand why they find it insulting (they think it means that we are saying video games suck and their D&D material sucks). I'm also sure most of us don't care. The amount of things D&D players seem to be insulted by is astounding. And frankly, I'm not going to be bothered by over-sensitive nonsense since practically anything anyone here says is going to upset some poor guy.

Even if I didn't use the term videogamey, and I flat out declared that "I think 4e sucks", who freaking cares? Sure, you can defend 4e and try to explain things to me in case it might change my opinion. But at the end of the day, if I still think 4e sucks, then as a fellow adult, deal with it. How on earth is that going to ruin your day knowing that I don't like 4e? Plenty of people don't like RPG material that I like, and it doesn't hurt my feelings one bit. I might think they are crazy, but I can understand that everyone has different tastes. I'm not actually going to flip out and cut heads off like Ninjas do just because you don't like what I like.

You people are whining about videogamey being too vague and a poor way to start off a conversation, yet if I were to say, "4e is awesome!" I guarantee you would have no problem with that. In fact, if you were a fan of 4e, you'd know what I meant when I said "awesome". I doubt you'd even demand to know any other details about what exactly it is that I find awesome. But because for some odd reason, the term videogamey hurts your feelings, then all of a sudden I'm a poor communicator and an insulting one at that.

And before anyone tries to go into some long-winded explanation as to how "awesome" and "videogamey" are not the same thing, it doesn't matter. Just pretend it's the same thing and except that people will continue to use the term videogamey. Try to understand that it's not knocking video games regardless of what you think. This is absurd guys.

 

[Dannager]

But, since you clearly seem to think it was a worthwhile comparison... Are you now saying that being bothered by WotC's statements was reasonable? Are you saying that being bothered by "videogamey" is unreasonable?

I'm saying, as I always have, that being insulted by any of this stuff is silly to begin with. While I find it frustrating and think it confuses the discussion when people call something videogamey, that doesn't come near making it insulting.

But it exposes an interesting bit of hypocrisy in those who would pretend that WotC is evilbaddumb for engaging in a marketing campaign that some might consider insulting, while also pretending that it's okay to use language that some might consider insulting.

 

[Mark CMG]

(A) some people find it insulting and (B) it tends to be vague and raises more questions than it answers. I'm not sure what we'd be losing here.

This probably puts you in the camp that feels they should not use that shorthand themselves, but for many others this isn't a problem because (A) they aren't being insulting while using it and (B) it is a shorthand that they find useful. I am getting the impression that the people who find it insulting do not believe it can be used in a manner that is not insulting. Is this the case?