D&D 5E A Board Game style Release Schedule

[Jester David]

Reading the last several pages of this thread has been extremely tiresome and so I shall endeavor to ignore them.

Instead, thought experiment time!

Let's assume two parallel universes:

Universe A, where after the core three books are released, Wizards of the Coast never again releases another 5E product.

and

Universe B, where after the core three books are released, Wizards of the Coast releases big adventure paths and smaller adventures, character options books, and campaign setting sourcebooks.

I'll be charitable to Universe B and assume it's release schedule is much more reserved than 3.x or 4E's, with system bloat accumulating at a much less frenetic pace. Both universes have access to the back catalog of material on D&D Classics.

In which universe will sixth edition be released first?

I honestly don't know and have no idea. I wouldn't want to even guess.

I do believe that a Universe C with monthly or even bi-monthly books would see a 6e sooner than A or B. But that wasn't your question.

Universe A would be one where secondary profit would come from elsewhere: novels, licenced products, other games. So the edition could arguably last longer as the money comes from elsewhere. And the alternative products would bring attention to the brand and RPG (and possibly be more successful as WotC would have to spread D&D out beyond the ghetto of game stores). But accessories do keep people interested in the RPG, which might have a cumultive effect of bringing people into the RPG and sending them to the other product lines generating even more money. That might work out in the favour of Universe B.
That's not considering the people of Universe A doing something sneaky like releasing a Boot Hill, Gamma World, or Alternity as a compatible yet stand alone product that subtly adds new races/monsters/feats.

 

[Kramodlog]

Looking at what WotC's actions have been to date, I believe they have no intention of releasing a sixth edition. Ever.

Ouf. That is some speculation. The only way we will know if it is true is to wait 5-10 years. Unless someone at WotC tells us, but speaking is against compagnie policy. I have serious doubts about evergreeness. WotC's top product is MtG, not a product that is evergreen. People have compared the in store adventures only for D&D to MtG's in store competitions. If they are inspired by MtG when it comes to D&D's business strategy, why stop there?

5E is intended to be an evergreen game with a board game like release schedule, where in 2035 you'll still be able to walk into a store and pick up a 5E Player's Handbook. The game now solely exists to keep the brand from being explained as "this thing with dice people used to play" when discussing cross-platform stuff like movies or games with friends. If more casual players get picked up and turned into devoted fans of the brand, awesome - but they're valued as evangelists for the moneymaking parts of the brand, not a source of hardbook purchasers.

The place holder theory I can buy. But your place holder doesn't need to be evergreen. Why turn down the money that comes with a new edition's core books? People will buy them. Everytime they do.

I like 5E a lot. I like the core books, and I also like the material they've put out in the recent Elemental Evil Player's Companion. If we get something like that every six months and see the monthly Unearthed Arcana articles get some playtesting revisions, that's all I'll need to keep playing the game indefinitely.

Yeah, you're not every D&D player out there. Personal anecdotes and testimony make for poor arguments.

If you need more material than that to keep you invested with the ruleset, that's unfortunate, but none of us are WotC's target demographic anymore, myself included. You've purchased the product WotC has put out for sale (the core books) and if you're not interested in big adventure paths (which I for one am not), they're under no obligation to put out any further support whatsoever.

The argument that they have an obligation to release more content is a strawman. No one is saying WotC has obligations towards players. Well, no one reasonable. If you get a sense that some people say WotC has obligations, it is toward profits. They have to try to make some. It is the law in the US (but it might just apply to Hasbro, the one with share holders). If people want WotC to make profits with D&D, it is because they want the RPG to survive. How many time can 4e happen?

The game is now complete - no one needs anything else to run it past this point, so anything we receive moving forward whatsoever is gravy.

We didn't need 5e either. There were 4e edition prior to 5e. They even release some hardcover of those editions and a lot of PDFs. So why make 5e? It is not needed. Why buy it? People have plenty of D&D already. Saying we do not need more books when we didn't need 5e is ridiculus. People buy stuff that is not needed.

What people are expressing is a desire for more content from WotC. Nothing wrong with that. It rubs people the wrong? I have no idea why. People are weird. Expressing a desire for more content on a popular public forum like ENworld makes a lot sense. People hope they can change some WotC high up minds. They check out forums to see what people say. Will it work? Who knows, but it is better than doing nothing.

 

[Kramodlog]

Where have I said anything even remotely like that?

When you said you were tired of people complaining. It is a side swipe at people telling to stop saying stuff you do not like.

But I can't get mad at a slow release schedule. Especially when, in the last 9 months, WotC had released 7 RPG products (soon to be 8). And in that same period, almost a dozen official D&D products have been released (counting spellcards and minis each as "one"). Things have in no way been slow, save the last month and change.

People are talking about what is to come. The little products that are annouced and what has been said about future releases (2 a year). Also, I'm very tired that preripheral products, like spell cards and screens and minies are mentioned. These are really just add-on, some arejust reprints of content in the PHB and DMG. People are talking about new official content for the game. Why not count the comics or the novels while we're at it?

Again, this thread started because I was thinking about board games. The Kickstarter for the Ghostbusters game actually. In one update the creators talked about how they didn't want a "one-and-done" product and were holding back Ghostbusters 2 content for a potentially standalone expansion. Which got me thinking about board game expansions and Pathfinder, when I realized I'd have been very happy had Pathfinder effectively stopped. If they had release 2-4 core expansions and then focused on much more optional content. How each successive release was as much a hindrance to me as an expansion. And I remembered how many board games I have that halted expansions when the game reached critical mass. Some games can expand continually (Cards Against Humanity) while others have a finite number of expansions before the added complexity offsets any gains from the new play experience.

We can compare D&D to a lot of stuff. 4e was compared to video games ad nauseum. Parallels have been drawn between 5e and MtG, now board games. I'm not saying people, you, can't do that. All that I was saying is that you were complaining about being tired of people complaining about the release schedule. It was obvious that this thread would turn into a "WotC's business model is flawed" thread when you started it. Complaining about it seems ridiculus.

When it was made clear that the elemental PDF only had 25 pages, it became obvious that some people would be disappointed. Complaints about 5e's release schedule is becoming it's stigma, like 4e was not D&D, or 3.x took too much time to prepare, or that PF is bloated.

 

[Reynard]

Actually I think 5e was explicitly designed to be more comparable with older editions. Specifically with the styles of play that older editions seem to support. But this was also a nod to support older edition material by supporting older edition play styles.

It wasn't designed to be system compatible with those previous editions, it was designed to invoke the "best" aspects of all editions and try and bring D&D players back under one tent. I think it succeeded pretty well on that from, but that's different than being able to run an old module with it unchanged (which you could do with both the 1E to 2E and 3.5 to PF transitions). Of course, someone will be along promptly to say they can do just that, but I contend that being able to run a module due to handwavium and familiarity is not the same thing as designed compatibility.

 

[Mistwell]

When you said you were tired of people complaining. It is a side swipe at people telling to stop saying stuff you do not like.

I don't like it when people complain about people who complain about people who complain about stuff they do not like.

 

[darjr]

It wasn't designed to be system compatible with those previous editions, it was designed to invoke the "best" aspects of all editions and try and bring D&D players back under one tent. I think it succeeded pretty well on that from, but that's different than being able to run an old module with it unchanged (which you could do with both the 1E to 2E and 3.5 to PF transitions). Of course, someone will be along promptly to say they can do just that, but I contend that being able to run a module due to handwavium and familiarity is not the same thing as designed compatibility.

That's what I said. I never said system compatible. It was designed to play in many styles. Styles that fit the content better.

For instance look at the commentary about porting older adventures to 4e style or 4e style to older rules systems, or adapting 3e adventures or adventures for other systems to 3e or so on. 5e's approach makes it more possible to use that older material by being able to play in the style of those other editions.

 

[Iosue]

Looking at what WotC's actions have been to date, I believe they have no intention of releasing a sixth edition. Ever. 5E is intended to be an evergreen game with a board game like release schedule, where in 2035 you'll still be able to walk into a store and pick up a 5E Player's Handbook. The game now solely exists to keep the brand from being explained as "this thing with dice people used to play" when discussing cross-platform stuff like movies or games with friends. If more casual players get picked up and turned into devoted fans of the brand, awesome - but they're valued as evangelists for the moneymaking parts of the brand, not a source of hardbook purchasers.

There will definitely be a 6th Edition, and I'd be very surprised if WotC also didn't expect for there to be a 6th edition sometime in the next decade. As a game with a lot of moving parts and added expansions (which will come, even if slowly), it will eventually need another edition just clean it up and get everything accessible again. Particularly with the approach they're taking of using surveys to gauge and adjust elements of gameplay. If they, say, release an "alternate ranger", eventually that's going to need to go into the core rules.

What we're likely to see though is edition changes along the lines of Holmes-to-Moldvay-to-Mentzer, or 1e-2e, or 3e-3.5. The same essential rules, re-released in newly edited books with some new art, with a few rules changes, perhaps some popular Unearthed Arcana material being promoted to Core Book material. Ideally, sometime between 5 to 10 years from now.

I do think that the next time a new edition comes, the delivery system will be quite different. Like perhaps a default of PDF (or other format) and print-on-demand. We are moving further and further away from the "print and sell hardcover books" model.

 

[bmfrosty]

There will definitely be a 6th Edition, and I'd be very surprised if WotC also didn't expect for there to be a 6th edition sometime in the next decade. As a game with a lot of moving parts and added expansions (which will come, even if slowly), it will eventually need another edition just clean it up and get everything accessible again. Particularly with the approach they're taking of using surveys to gauge and adjust elements of gameplay. If they, say, release an "alternate ranger", eventually that's going to need to go into the core rules.

What we're likely to see though is edition changes along the lines of Holmes-to-Moldvay-to-Mentzer, or 1e-2e, or 3e-3.5. The same essential rules, re-released in newly edited books with some new art, with a few rules changes, perhaps some popular Unearthed Arcana material being promoted to Core Book material. Ideally, sometime between 5 to 10 years from now.

I do think that the next time a new edition comes, the delivery system will be quite different. Like perhaps a default of PDF (or other format) and print-on-demand. We are moving further and further away from the "print and sell hardcover books" model.

Semantics between 6th ed and 5th ed 2nd printing.

I would say that folding in online eratta does not make for a new edition. It does make for a new printing or a new revision.

That all said, I hope that every printing includes some editorial tweaking.

 

[BryonD]

Semantics between 6th ed and 5th ed 2nd printing.

I would say that folding in online eratta does not make for a new edition. It does make for a new printing or a new revision.

That all said, I hope that every printing includes some editorial tweaking.

I agree with Iosue. But you might be right as well.
It would be interesting to see if they can take the CoC approach to "editions".
And somewhere along the way the presumption of physical books will fade.

 

[bmfrosty]

I agree with Iosue. But you might be right as well.
It would be interesting to see if they can take the CoC approach to "editions".
And somewhere along the way the presumption of physical books will fade.

Actually that last statement seems very interesting to me. I think that for parts, the physical books is fairly intrinsic to the game - specifically the core books.

I have a theory that WoTC is applying windowing to it's books in different ways depending on the book.

I think that their adventures (HotDQ first, then TRoT, and then the DDEX1-* adventures ) will make their way to dndclassics after their run in Adventurers League is over. Once PotA is out. Once PotA has wound down and the next book is out, PotA and DDEX2-* will make their way to dndclassics.

The hardback adventure paths will go out of physical print. 2014's adventures will not be reprinted.

I'm very doubtful that the three core books will make their way to official PDF any time soon.

I don't think we'll ever see the OGL from WoTC again. I think we'll see something like the GSL instead. I think it will be a set of simple rules for 3rd parties to follow when publishing compatible adventures or settings - which I see as more and more of a PDF business anyway.

I don't think WoTC is interested in printing any book less than 224 pages.

On the other side they don't have the legal framework to make it illegal for others to print adventures that are compatible with D&D any more than it's illegal to use off-brand coffee in a Keurig. The best way that they can proceed is to lay some groundwork for others to publish compatible product without actually stepping on their copyrights. I don't think they want to become a litigation firm. That said, they have no obligation to allow others to paraphrase what they've written and sell it as a new book.

It will be interesting to see how things have shaken out in the 4th quarter.