A Change to Power Attack

[Harm]

An optional power attack idea, just for fun.

Every -1 to hit you take, your threat range increases by 1.

Even more optional...

Your threat multiplyer increases by 1 per -5.
If wielding a two handed weapon, threat multiplyer increases by 1 per -3.


This would increase the chance of a crit, but keep large chunks of damage from the standard power attack from multiplying, (i.e. no +20 damage from a -10 PA turning into a +40, +60 or +80). Any number crunchers out there know if this would move damage up, down, or at all?

Well on anything that can't be critted, which depending on campaign may mean few or most of your opponents, it would move damage down. Increaseing the crit range like that would also not benefit some weapons as much as others depending on their existing crit multiplyer.

 

[airwalkrr]

Thats your opinion. It's wrong, and you're welcome to keep it. I'm pretty sure no one else wants it.

Until very recently (3.5+splatbook-era), that is exactly what the game was like. Take a look at older editions, even 3.0, and you will see that I am completely right.

Couple times a day? Odd, you just stated the complete opposite above, that mages are the damage dealers. Any wizard or cleric of a level who can only hit 50 damage "a couple times a day" has dedicated the majority of their spellbook to non-damageing spells.

You misunderstood me. I meant wizards and clerics can only do save-or-die and similar effects (slay living, disintegrate, finger of death, etc.) a couple of times per day. And the average damage for even a 10th level caster is usually about 35 points of damage. It can get higher with maximize, empower, and the like, but saving throws reduce the efficacy of one-hit kills that way. Besides that, casters must ration their spells, using them judiciously. Warriors don't have to ration their swings. Casters are the best at dealing damage, but not forcing save-or-die saves (at least until you hit about 15th level, and most people, meaning 75% or more, don't play that high).

The at least 5% for killing a monster is more of an at most unless you're feeding your party underleveled monsters. Most mobs hit 14+ fort saves fast, or are immune to crits, or are played by a GM that makes them more than drooling idiots and has them buff themelves.

I'm gonna call shenanigans. Let's take a look at the monster manual, the baseline for creatures in D&D. (Some will claim that isn't fair since the MM monsters are comparatively weak. But that is for discussions on power creep. I agree with the sentiment that they are relatively weak and typically raise the CR of creatures from other books if they seem more powerful than MM creatures of similar CR.)

There are creatures with CRs as high as 13 in the MM that do not have +14 or better to their Fort save (I'm not counting the mind flayer sorcerer as 17 or creatures immune to critical hits). PCs can start regularly dealing out 50+ points of damage in melee far earlier than that. I've seen it done at 7th level. By the time these characters hit 12th or so, they are dealing that much with every hit. If you figure it takes 13.3 encounters with an EL equal to your average character level and then you figure several of those combats will involve multiple opponents, that is probably at least one opponent per level after 13th who will die to a save from massive damage, and far more opponents before then. Many people think the "sweet spot" for D&D is around 9th-10th level, which you can see is born out in this poll which was posted just recently. So unless you deviate from the norm or play with people who refuse to power-game (and let's admit it, almost everyone does it just a little bit), chances are you will see a lot of creatures dying to massive damage saves playing by the rules as written.

And need I remind you that I already answered that above and said if you don't like the synergy, don't allow it. Hell, don't allow any of the money-making-power-up-cheesy- stuff that isn't in PHB or DMG and all of your problems would dissapear and the game would be better.

Yes, let's not use the $1000 worth of books my players have purchased. That sounds like a great idea. [/sarcasm] Sorry, it is difficult to find a group willing to run "core only" games. I do restrict a few things from other books, but only when they are inherently broken. Leap Attack for instance doesn't have to be so bad, but the open-ended Power Attack makes it bad. I have found if I just make a few tweaks to the core rules here and there, I eliminate a large number of problems that arise from using supplement books outside the core rules.

Speaking of a couple times per day however, thats about as often as Leap Attack/Shock Trooper could even be used unless you're having seriously odd fights. Also by doing a charge you're not doing a full attack action and those additional 1-5 hits could be doing more.

So you're saying all encounters start with the PCs and the bad guys already within 5 ft. of each other? I would say you are the one having seriously odd fights, sir. PCs who pull this tactic off invest in a high initiative modifier (not hard), proper skills (also not hard), and massive damage output (easiest of all). When a PC uses it, it happens at the beginning of almost every combat, and usually 1 or 2 more times during the combat as well. Have you ever heard of benign transposition? It's a nifty spell. Check it out. Not broken at all, but horribly abusable with this kind of cheese.

 

[BRP2]

I would rather make a blanket rule about power attack than make an adjustment to or ban every other ability in the game based on it. I attempted it once. The list is LONG. I don't think you appreciate how long it is.

You puzzle me greatly. I do not allow anything related to PA outside PHB and any possible errata. I house ruled that crit multipliers don't effect it and that's that. And how is what I said ironic?

Grapple checks, trip attempts, disarm attempts, etc. all have size modifiers

All of these involve moving the larger opponent which is why it comes into play. Size mods don't effect damage, why would it effect it on Power Attack?

Anyway, maybe making this thread was a bad idea. You asked what several others and I thought, but what is the point if you are simply going to ignore us and even insult us. You seem to only want attention and none of the criticism.

 

[airwalkrr]

You puzzle me greatly. I do not allow anything related to PA outside PHB and any possible errata. I house ruled that crit multipliers don't effect it and that's that. And how is what I said ironic?

Then I misunderstood you. My apologies.

That certainly is simple, but it cuts out a LOT of material.

All of these involve moving the larger opponent which is why it comes into play. Size mods don't effect damage, why would it effect it on Power Attack?

I direct you to the enlarge person spell which increases damage dice of a weapon as it gets larger. I then direct you to table 2-2 of the DMG for increasing weapon damage by size. I think I've made my point.

Anyway, maybe making this thread was a bad idea. You asked what several others and I thought, but what is the point if you are simply going to ignore us and even insult us. You seem to only want attention and none of the criticism.

People who post in the house rules thread should be able to say more than "your idea is wrong." Your point seems to boil down to the fact that damage based on size doesn't make sense to you. References supporting your opinion would help persuade me, as would suggestions that make more sense than mine. I do appreciate the suggestion to simply not allow PA damage to be multiplied by crits, but I have already explained why that solution was insufficient to me. And I did not insult you when I informed you of this. I simply declared that it was insufficient for my purposes.

It's just one of my problems. This fix addressed but one of my problems. My fix addresses all of them.

Perhaps I should have emoted, but I fail to see how you derive an insult from that.

If you are talking about the irony statement, I apologize if you were insulted as it was not the intent (although making your argument appear weak certainly was). I misunderstood you at any rate, and that is now clarified.

 

[Crothian]

1) Power Attack is occassionally useful when using a one-handed weapon, but incredible when using a two-handed weapon.

Why is this a problem? Not all feats are made for all combat styles. That is why there are many different feats for the different styles of combat.

2) Numerous abilities in newer supplements have ways to augment Power Attack, making it even better (and thus more problematic). E.g. Shock Trooper, Exotic Weapon Master, and Leap Attack to name a few.

If a suppliment makes something too powerful nerf the suppliment not the original item. IF a prestige class made the Bard the most dominant class would you really go back and redeign the Bard but leave the prestige class along?

3) Power Attack works the same no matter the size of the creature using it. That makes no sense at all. A Colossal creature should get a greater benefit for throwing caution to the wind since there is far more momentum behind his swing.

Larger beings have more hit dice. More hit dice means higher BAB and higher BAB means then can use power attack for more damage. So, size is already a factor.

4) Power Attack damage is multiplied on a critical hit. For normal weapons with one-handed weapon-wielders this is usually fairly reasonable. With two-handed weapon wielders with high critical multipliers (scythe, I'm looking in your direction), the damage becomes obscene. A scythe is essentially a vorpal weapon at higher levels; when I get a critical hit with a scythe, I get +8 damage for each -1 to my attack roll. That's +80 damage at 10th level! One-hit kills can be fun, but they can also be anti-climactic. "Hmm, the barbarian just critted the BBEG with a scythe on the first round. That wasn't a very scary BBEG."

A scythe welding barbarian? Doesn't he get teased by the Bard?

5) While most feats grant the same benefit regardless of character level, Power Attack increases in potential benefit with each level. You can get +1 damage at 1st level but +10 at 10th level.

Ya, most feats don't scale; some of them do are you changing all of them? Also, to get that higher damage one has to take a negative to attack. Not a lot of fighters are hitting with a -10 to attack at tenth level.

6) Some players (especially those who aren't good at math) take forever deciding how many points to Power Attack for. It would be nice if the mechanic was simpler and didn't involve as much math.

I think it would be nicer if people could add.

 

[airwalkrr]

Why is this a problem? Not all feats are made for all combat styles. That is why there are many different feats for the different styles of combat.

Because it makes one fighting style vastly superior to another, even without floaty shields!

If a suppliment makes something too powerful nerf the suppliment not the original item. IF a prestige class made the Bard the most dominant class would you really go back and redeign the Bard but leave the prestige class along?

I have 5 other problems with Power Attack other than its synergy with supplements. Players like using supplements. I like letting players use supplements. It adds more flavor to the game. So finding a way to keep supplements by changing Power Attack is simpler. And besides, I have a problem with Power Attack even without this point. Power Attack is too good without the supplements.

Larger beings have more hit dice. More hit dice means higher BAB and higher BAB means then can use power attack for more damage. So, size is already a factor.

One could argue that, but they still get the same bang for their buck, which does not make sense. A colossal dragon who taps you is going to have a bigger impact on you than a halfling barbarian who taps you.

A scythe welding barbarian? Doesn't he get teased by the Bard?

Not if the bard likes being alive.

Ya, most feats don't scale; some of them do are you changing all of them? Also, to get that higher damage one has to take a negative to attack. Not a lot of fighters are hitting with a -10 to attack at tenth level.

Other feats that do scale are not detrimental to the game in the same fashion. Improved Combat Expertise is hardly a problem. One can usually ignore such characters. It is hard to ignore a barbarian hitting you for 40-50 points of damage each round.

I think it would be nicer if people could add.

Quite.

 

[Crothian]

Because it makes one fighting style vastly superior to another, even without floaty shields!

That hasn't been proven. Ya, it's better for Barbarians but no rogues. It's not vastlu superior except for perhaps a certain character type.

I have 5 other problems with Power Attack other than its synergy with supplements. Players like using supplements. I like letting players use supplements. It adds more flavor to the game. So finding a way to keep supplements by changing Power Attack is simpler. And besides, I have a problem with Power Attack even without this point. Power Attack is too good without the supplements.

Saying you have more then this problem with the feat indicates that this one should be eliminated since that is your first defense.

One could argue that, but they still get the same bang for their buck, which does not make sense. A colossal dragon who taps you is going to have a bigger impact on you than a halfling barbarian who taps you.

Right and that's based on the hit die and the strength. Large creatures alredy have two advantages with power attack, they don't need a third. It's not like there are power attacking pixies out there breaking the system.

Other feats that do scale are not detrimental to the game in the same fashion. Improved Combat Expertise is hardly a problem. One can usually ignore such characters. It is hard to ignore a barbarian hitting you for 40-50 points of damage each round.

There are so many ways to take down a PA ing barbarian in the game that it isn't funny. And I've seen rogues do that kind of damage with 2wf. But it kind of sounds like you feel that damage is more important then other factors.

 

[BRP2]

I direct you to the enlarge person spell which increases damage dice of a weapon as it gets larger. I then direct you to table 2-2 of the DMG for increasing weapon damage by size. I think I've made my point.

No you haven't I'm sorry to say. This has very little to do with Weapon size. Weapon size is different yes, but that has nothing to do with Power Attack or how hard one swings.

A Halfling with the same Strength as a Human swinging a club with both hands while the Human swings a great club with both hands does the same STR and Power Attack damage as the Human. The only difference is weapon size damage. I think it's obvious to say, the weapon size damage is represented by the weapon size damage.

 

[airwalkrr]

No you haven't I'm sorry to say. This has very little to do with Weapon size. Weapon size is different yes, but that has nothing to do with Power Attack or how hard one swings.

A Halfling with the same Strength as a Human swinging a club with both hands while the Human swings a great club with both hands does the same STR and Power Attack damage as the Human. The only difference is weapon size damage. I think it's obvious to say, the weapon size damage is represented by the weapon size damage.

Simple physics here. So why does a halfling with a 10 Str swinging a medium-sized club deal the same damage as a human with a 10 Str swinging a medium-sized club? Because the inertia is the same. Give the halfling a smaller weapon (a halfling club) and he deals less damage with it. Power Attack is described as putting more strength into your swing at the expense of accuracy. I imagine that if I hit you with my right hand at a velocity of 75 kph, it will hurt a lot less than if you were hit by the claw of a kodiak bear at a velocity of 75 kph. If I increase the speed of my blow to 85 kph by sacrificing some of my accuracy and the bear does likewise, I imagine you will feel a more profound change in the bear's swing than mine. This is because while the weight that I can bring to bear (no pun intended) in my hand probably amounts to no more than 2 or 3 lbs., a kodiak bear can bring his 15 lbs. claw on your head with a much bigger increase in inertia. (I don't know the true weight of a kodiak bear's claw. But I know it is a lot heavier than my hand.)

 

[Harm]

Until very recently (3.5+splatbook-era), that is exactly what the game was like. Take a look at older editions, even 3.0, and you will see that I am completely right.

Nope. You're dead wrong. You know, when everyone in a thread says you're wrong, it's time to lay down and suck your thumb.

You misunderstood me. I meant wizards and clerics can only do save-or-die and similar effects (slay living, disintegrate, finger of death, etc.) a couple of times per day.

Then you're wrong on that too. A 20th level cleric with 28 wis can take 31 slay living (or better) spells per day. I start to see your problem. You think 31 = 2 for mages, and every swing with power attack ignores AC. Yeah, in your world power attack would be over powered.

And the average damage for even a 10th level caster is usually about 35 points of damage.

Again only in your special world where a melee spends 50 feats at level 7 to maximize power attack damage, but a mage uses none. With two feats and a metamagic wand a cleric does 100 average damage at level 10 with sound lance. Again, the math in your world is pretty messed up when 100 = 35. You grossly underestimate mages and grossly overestimate melee. A 10th level wizard will maximize a fireball with wand to do an average of 75 damage to multiple targets. A mage by level 10 is VASTLY outdamaging melee even with power attack.

There are creatures with CRs as high as 13 in the MM that do not have +14 or better to their Fort save

So basically what you're saying is that mages have no problem landing sound lance on them for max damage and when they do they can fail their check on top of it. Now look at those creature's AC and you'll find that, oh surprise, a melee CAN'T power attack them or they're gaurenteed to miss on anything but a 20.

So you're saying all encounters start with the PCs and the bad guys already within 5 ft. of each other?

Thats exactly the opposite of what I said.

When a PC uses it, it happens at the beginning of almost every combat, and usually 1 or 2 more times during the combat as well. Have you ever heard of benign transposition? It's a nifty spell. Check it out. Not broken at all, but horribly abusable with this kind of cheese.

Beginning of most combats is exactly why it'll probably get used about once a fight. Using it 1 or 2 more times during a combat is frankly absurd unless your party is grinding away at hordes of too-weak mobs. As for benign tansposition, yes, it's a very nice spell once the mages run out of spells that will 1-shot kill things. But by then, it's time to rest.

When you find a CR23 dracolich and a 15th level cleric assays spell resistance and pounds a no-save 180 + 7d12 Bolt of Glory into it and it falls over dead before anyone else gets a turn, yeah... lets nerf power attack. I totally see your point.