A Change to Power Attack

[BRP2]

Simple physics here. So why does a halfling with a 10 Str swinging a medium-sized club deal the same damage as a human with a 10 Str swinging a medium-sized club? Because the inertia is the same. Give the halfling a smaller weapon (a halfling club) and he deals less damage with it. Power Attack is described as putting more strength into your swing at the expense of accuracy. I imagine that if I hit you with my right hand at a velocity of 75 kph, it will hurt a lot less than if you were hit by the claw of a kodiak bear at a velocity of 75 kph. If I increase the speed of my blow to 85 kph by sacrificing some of my accuracy and the bear does likewise, I imagine you will feel a more profound change in the bear's swing than mine. This is because while the weight that I can bring to bear (no pun intended) in my hand probably amounts to no more than 2 or 3 lbs., a kodiak bear can bring his 15 lbs. claw on your head with a much bigger increase in inertia. (I don't know the true weight of a kodiak bear's claw. But I know it is a lot heavier than my hand.)

You are not making any sense. Let me break it up in detail then.

Simple physics here. So why does a halfling with a 10 Str swinging a medium-sized club deal the same damage as a human with a 10 Str swinging a medium-sized club? Because the inertia is the same. Give the halfling a smaller weapon (a halfling club) and he deals less damage with it.

Yes, this is described by weapon size damage and it has nothing to do with inertia. This has NOTHING to do with Power Attack. How hard is it to understand this? This is becoming frustrating.

Power Attack is described as putting more strength into your swing at the expense of accuracy.

Exactly. EXACTLY. Strength. STR.

I imagine that if I hit you with my right hand at a velocity of 75 kph, it will hurt a lot less than if you were hit by the claw of a kodiak bear at a velocity of 75 kph. If I increase the speed of my blow to 85 kph by sacrificing some of my accuracy and the bear does likewise, I imagine you will feel a more profound change in the bear's swing than mine. This is because while the weight that I can bring to bear (no pun intended) in my hand probably amounts to no more than 2 or 3 lbs., a kodiak bear can bring his 15 lbs. claw on your head with a much bigger increase in inertia. (I don't know the true weight of a kodiak bear's claw. But I know it is a lot heavier than my hand.)

This has a lot to do with the bear being stronger than you. If you were as strong or stronger than the bear, as many DnD heroes are, you would not have this problem. How hard is it to understand?

(I'm not including the claw damage of the bear, but just to be as clear as possible... for example(no real stats used)

Human with 10 STR: 1d4+0 damage
Bear with 18 STR: 1d6+4 damage

Human with 18 STR: 1d4+4 damage
Human wearing a claw weapon that mimics a bear's claw: 1d6+6 damage)

 

[XO]

Sigh!

8th lvl Barbarian power-attacking into a 50-80 damage range crit? Yes... That is the game you (we) play!

A greataxe +2, with modified Str yielding +6, at 3d12 + 18... No Power Attack yet and we already have a possibility of surpassing 50 hp damage. BAB 8 dedicated to 2H PA and you get a possible (8 x 2) X 3 on a Crit. An extra 16hp damage on a hit, or on a Crit, 48 hp... Nice...

How often does the Barb hit once he dedicates ALL BAB to PA? Presume he has a maximum +18 before PA, +10 after... Stop sending kobolds his way...

Too many DMs who forget to use Will saves versus Barbarians I guess?

Seriously, a Crit for a 2-hander... Doesn't exactly occur every second hit... Even with Keen or Improved Crit, it only happens on 19 or 20... That's a MAXIMUM 10% per hit, no matter what you do. Less after confirmation. Seldom seen on second attack in a full-round.

"Regularly" ? Have players remove the lead plugs from their d20... If they consistently roll high, remove the offending die from the game. Yes, some dice are NOT stastically accurate. Them are the breaks.

 

[airwalkrr]

You are not making any sense. Let me break it up in detail then.

I don't know how to make my point any clearer without breaking out physics formulae. But I'll try one more time.

A bear's claw deals more damage than a human first because it is more massive. When swung at the same speed as a human fist, it has a greater force of impact. That explains the difference between a human's d3 unarmed strike and a black bear's d4 claw. The Strength modifier has nothing to do with it.

Now here is the second, and more critical part to my argument. If you apply an equal increase in speed to both, the bear's claw gains more net force than the human fist, therefore, a bear can put more force into his claw swing at the expense of accuracy than can a human his fist. More net force equals more damage to the target. A bear swinging 10 kph faster weighing 5 times more will gain 5 times the force (damage) of a human swinging 10 kph faster.

 

[airwalkrr]

"Regularly" ? Have players remove the lead plugs from their d20... If they consistently roll high, remove the offending die from the game. Yes, some dice are NOT stastically accurate. Them are the breaks.

Yes, it happens regularly. There is a player in Living Greyhawk who began to hit 50+ damage with alarming consistency at around 6th level. I will try to approximate his build as best I can.

Half-Orc Bbn2/Ftr4
Str 18 (+2 gauntlets for 20, stat boost for 21, rage for 25)
Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Power Attack
Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Improved Initiative

Atk with +1 greatsword while raging/charging +17 (Str +7, BAB +6, +2 chrg, WF +1, mag +1) for 2d6+13 dmg (weap 2d6, Str+10, WS +2, mag +1)

He had a good initiative score so he usually went early enough in the round to act before a bad guy. If he threw everything he had into PA, he got +12 to dmg. He usually used heedless charge to maximal benefit as well. So his attack bonus remained +17 while his dmg rocketted to 2d6+25. Still not in the 50+ damage range, but consider that at level 6, with +17 to hit, almost any critical threat will be confirmed, and any critical hit is 50+ damage. So he would get a critical hit a little less than once every 10 swings. Since he had enough hit points to soak up plenty of attacks of opportunity before he went down, he would simply charge a nearby opponent if the first one didn't fall merely to maximize his damage (he didn't think his second swing was as much worth it with the -5). Given that the typical LG adventure lasts four hours and involves three battles, he got critical hits during most adventures.

But that is not the worst problem. Oh no. Consider case B, the halfling outrider, another player I know of in LG. Now I am only guessing at the build since I have never seen his character sheet, although he has explained to me how it works, and in my thought excercises it checks out. The PrC isn't necessary, but that is the way he wanted to do it (small size for defensive bonus, halfling for save bonus, etc.).

Halfling Ftr6, note this was before he became a halfling outrider
Str 14 (+2 gauntlets, +1 stat boost for 17)
Weapon Focus (lance)
Power Attack
Weapon Specialization (lance)
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Mounted Archery

Atk with +1 lance while charging +14 (Str +3, BAB +6, +2 chrg, WF +1, mag +1, size +1) for 1d8+7 dmg (weap 1d8, Str+4, WS +2, mag +1)

He would frequently Power Attack for low numbers at this level. Let us say for the sake of argument he did -4 for +8 dmg. Now our friend the halfling was not hitting as often with a +10 to hit, but when he did, it was for a whopping 3d8+45 (triple damage spirited charge with lance), usually well over 50 pts without even a critical hit! (And you can imagine how obscene critcal hits were, rare though they be.) Because of Ride-By Attack he could do this almost every round without the AoO our barbarian friend constantly suffered. And because he was mounted on a medium creature (riding dog), he could traverse almost any terrain any other medium PC could.

The clever thing about this 6th level build is that it is perfectly core! The Spirited Charge and Lance are not really the problem though. It's that pesky +6 to +36 from PA, which has the potential to more than double the already impressive amount of damage on average. 3.0 PA allowed this at +18, which was still potent, but not quite to the reliable 50+ damage yet.

And there are other builds, but I think two examples clearly demonstrates my point.

 

[BRP2]

Airwalkrr simply, your idea of Power Attack isn't consistent with the rest of the game.

 

[Harm]

Yes, it happens regularly. There is a player in Living Greyhawk who began to hit 50+ damage with alarming consistency at around 6th level. I will try to approximate his build as best I can.

Half-Orc Bbn2/Ftr4
Str 18 (+2 gauntlets for 20, stat boost for 21, rage for 25)
Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Power Attack
Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Improved Initiative

Atk with +1 greatsword while raging/charging +17 (Str +7, BAB +6, +2 chrg, WF +1, mag +1) for 2d6+13 dmg (weap 2d6, Str+10, WS +2, mag +1)

Can only rage once per day.

He had a good initiative score so he usually went early enough in the round to act before a bad guy.

Because your opponents are too weak and have low dex.
Because your opponents are gimped and don't have improved inititive.
Because your opponents are punching bags and stand around waiting to be attacked instead of sneaking up on the party.

Since he had enough hit points to soak up plenty of attacks of opportunity before he went down,

Um... excuse me? How about you get a GM that uses appropriate level NPCs then? You've just admitted that the NPCs are feeble punching bags who have no chance of defeating the PCs no matter how stupid they are because they simply don't do reasonable damage. Any PC who lowers their AC AND gives the opponents lots of free attacks AND runs away from the cleric every round should DIE EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER. If they aren't, you GM is a goof.

he would simply charge a nearby opponent if the first one didn't fall merely to maximize his damage (he didn't think his second swing was as much worth it with the -5). Given that the typical LG adventure lasts four hours and involves three battles, he got critical hits during most adventures.

First off, you can't charge someone that has moved up beside you to flank you along with their buddies and taken advantage of the fact that you have no AC since you converted it all with charge and Shock Trooper. The GM needs to stop playing the NPCs as if they're drooling idiots. That barbarian doing that tactic would be dead before the third round of combat by any compatent GM.

Second you have a problem with 1 critical hit happeneing most play sessions? Um? Why exactly? Mages who have been made into a one-trick-pony like the barbarian can easily do similar damage at least once per game day. Do it at range... without taking attacks of opportunity and probably have a higher AC too. On multiple targets a 6th level wizard can open with a 36+3d6 fireball, potentially 54 damage to all targets in a 20ft radius. Yeah... go go barbarian.

Your examples have done the exact opposite. You've shown there is no problem with power attack. You have however amply displayed that there are a few huge problems with your campaign.

 

[starwed]

Tell him to stop cheating. Thats two more feats than he can have. So take off Imp. Init. and Weap Spec.

He gets three feats from levels (at char level 1, 3, and 6) and 3 from four levels of fighter. So actually, he has exactly the right number of feats, unless there are some prereqs unaccounted.

edit: Ah, I see you learned to count before I hit post.

 

[Lokar]

I feel that it is a sad and strange thing that after lurking here a while the thing that motivates me the most to post is the unneeded flaming in this thread. Though I may not agree with airwalker I feel no need to insult him for his opinions, and find that most of his arguments are rational.

As for the low level mage low level fighter vrse high level mage high level fighter, since the begining of D&D at low levels the fighters job was to deal the damage and keep the mage alive, while at high levels the mages job was to deal the damage and keep the fighters alive (wellok so the cleric keep them alive, but you get my point ) I've been saying that for a very long time. It's part of a high fantasy magic heavy setting, the strong magic user WILL be more powerful then the brute who swings his sword a lot.

That said, I see no problems with a more balanced system where mages aren't powerhouses of death and the big brute guy isn't a pansy. Of course this is coming from the guy who always played the halfling thief in 2e, yup, possibly the single weakest class/race combo in the game (but all those fun thief skill bonuses!)

Anyways be happy folks no need to fight.

 

[Quartz]

But that is not the worst problem. Oh no. Consider case B, the halfling outrider, another player I know of in LG. ...He would frequently Power Attack for low numbers at this level. Let us say for the sake of argument he did -4 for +8 dmg.

Are you sure about those numbers? From the SRD:

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.
While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

A lance is a one-handed weapon, so you don't get double PA, though you do get double for charging.

You start with 1d8+7, +4 PA, so that's 1d8 +11, tripled for Spirited Charge (which supercedes the normal charge) becomes 3d8 + 33. Not 3d8+45.

Anyway, the key with stopping abusive charging is to remember that the charger must have a clear path. If the target is in combat with another creature in the same square then you can't charge.

CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

And do you get your Str bonus anyway with a mounted lance?

 

[Quartz]

Hmm... assuming you can't PA with a lance, nor get Str, that reduces damage to a more reasonable 3d8+12. Still very good, and still trouble on a critical, but not overpowering.