A couple of Magic Item pricing questions

[Perun]

As a DM, I'm somewhat known for being a bit too stern and analytical when it comes to the introduction of new (i.e. player created) stuff, such as spells, magic items, feats, etc.

So, now that some of my players are starting to plan the creation of a couple of items, I'd like some advice, so as to avoid being too stern on them

A wizard player would like to create a sort of command word activated item that would be usable by his weasel familiar. He'd like the item to give the wearer (the familiar, in this case) the ability to use alter self to assume one specific, predetermined winged form, once per day (so that the familiar would be able to escape, if need be).

The cleric would like to create a magic pot for the said wizard (an always hungry, very lazy dwarf) that would be able to duplicate the last meal cooked in it, once per day, in amount that would suffice to feed two medium creatures. He'd like the pot to cost 3,000 gp (cost to create), and is willing to put other limiting factors on the item (long activation time, whatever).

The druid would like to create an item that would grant him the ability to speak with animals at will. There is such an item in MotW, and it costs 12,000 gp (market price). It uses speak with animals at 6th caster level. It does seem a bit costy, and the same book had those odd-priced (i.e. cheap) saving-throw boosting items.

What do you think, how much would the said items cost?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Troll Wizard]

A wizard player would like to create a sort of command word activated item that would be usable by his weasel familiar. He'd like the item to give the wearer (the familiar, in this case) the ability to use alter self to assume one specific, predetermined winged form, once per day (so that the familiar would be able to escape, if need be).

Weasel Item "need name"
Command Word Activated, Once per day (at 3rd level)
Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800 (2x3x1800) ..10800 gp
Once per day (10,800(5/1)).....................2160 gp
Cloak, Cape, Mantle Slot (Weasel size) ........2160 gp (create 1080, 86 xp)
Other slot (2160x1.5) .........................3240 gp (create 1620, 129 xp)
None slotted (2160x2) .........................4320 gp (create 2160, 172 xp)

The cleric would like to create a magic pot for the said wizard (an always hungry, very lazy dwarf) that would be able to duplicate the last meal cooked in it, once per day, in amount that would suffice to feed two medium creatures. He'd like the pot to cost 3,000 gp (cost to create), and is willing to put other limiting factors on the item (long activation time, whatever).

"Repeat Last Meal" Cook Pot
Command Word Activated, Once per day (at 5th level)
Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800 (3x5x1800)....27,000 gp
Once per day (27,000(5/1))......................5,400 gp
None slotted (5400x2)...........................10,800 gp (create 5400, 432 xp)
Discount (repeat meal, only 2 med...) -30%......7560 (create 3780, 302 xp)

The discount is for having a meal cooked in it during the same day that it is activated (.i.e repeat breakfast or lunch meal) and for the fewer people fed and that it only provides 1 meal versus enough for a 24 hour period as the spell normally would.

The druid would like to create an item that would grant him the ability to speak with animals at will. There is such an item in MotW, and it costs 12,000 gp (market price). It uses speak with animals at 6th caster level. It does seem a bit costy, and the same book had those odd-priced (i.e. cheap) saving-throw boosting items.

Speak with Animals Item
Use Activated Item (at 1st Level) continuous use
Spell Level x Caster Level x 2000 (1x1x2000)......2000 gp
Minute Duration Multipler (2000x2)................4000 gp
Hat Slot..........................................4000 gp (create 2000, 160 xp)
Other slot (4000x1.5).............................6000 gp (create 3000, 240 xp)
None slotted (4000x2).............................8000 gp (create 4000, 320 xp)

Perhaps I am missing something, because this should only be good for 5 minutes per day, because the spell duration is 1 min/level and default item creation pricing of 5 uses per day. As always it is the DMs call to make as the item creation rules are strictly guidelines and not hard rules. So 12,000 as you quoted MotW could be the true value of this item.
Also you can let him have it at the lower price, but if he uses it too much it might get stuck in one language "chipmonk" or he keeps forgetting to turn it off.... it can be fun sometimes.

 

[dcollins]

For the food-producing item, compare to the DMG Murlynd's Spoon, which costs 5,500 gp.

If MOTW prices a speak with animals item at 12,000 gp, I'd go with that.

 

[Nail]

Weasel Item "need name"
Command Word Activated, Once per day (at 3rd level)
Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800 (2x3x1800) ..10800 gp
Once per day (10,800(5/1)).....................2160 gp
Cloak, Cape, Mantle Slot (Weasel size) ........2160 gp (create 1080, 86 xp)
Other slot (2160x1.5) .........................3240 gp (create 1620, 129 xp)
None slotted (2160x2) .........................4320 gp (create 2160, 172 xp)

Errr......we're not really talking about the spell Alter Self, though, are we? We're talking about a power that is similar....but it's also similar to the spell Fly. Check out Wings of Flying in the DMG. This magic item sounds quite similar to that one: giving you wings so you can fly.

Don't be mislead by that Alter Self reference.

 

[Troll Wizard]

Errr......we're not really talking about the spell Alter Self, though, are we? We're talking about a power that is similar....but it's also similar to the spell Fly. Check out Wings of Flying in the DMG. This magic item sounds quite similar to that one: giving you wings so you can fly.

Don't be mislead by that Alter Self reference.

Yikes your are absolutely right. I forget to consider the specific function and intent of the user. Price it per "Wings of Flying" per the DMG. Those multi-function/use spells always throw me off.

Must remember to break down spell effects when costing them for magical items!

 

[Troll Wizard]

Sorry double post

 

[Kalendraf]

Perhaps I am missing something, because this should only be good for 5 minutes per day, because the spell duration is 1 min/level and default item creation pricing of 5 uses per day.

As was explained to me once upon a time, 5 uses per day and continuous use is nearly the same thing for many types of spells. Certainly not true from a duration standpoint, but very similar from a functional use standpoint. In many adventuring sessions, a character will almost never need to activate something like this more than 5 times in a single day before they rest and the item recharges. Hence the price for 5 per day and continuous work out to the same cost.

In regards to the permanent speak with animals item, I think the 4K cost seems in line compared to other custom items I have seen. At worst, double it and make it a non-slotted item pricing. The 12K cost from MotW really looks like a mistake.

 

[Perun]

Thanks for the insighful replies, guys!

The Wings of Flying reference was helpful, as that particular item slipped my mind. However, that's one of the reasns I posted the question here, as I already told the player that the final price of such an item would be heavily dependant on the chosen form. I wouldn't want players running about with use-activated Alter Self items granting natural armour, when there are already Amulets doing the same thing, for a uch higher price

Anyways, Wings cost 54,000 gp, and allow flight at will. This item would work for 30 minutes (once per day, caster level 3rd), with additinal limitions (which, granted don't matter much to a familiar -- e.g. while a wizard with Wings of Flying would be bale to cast spells and do other things while flying, familiar doesn't have much use for such things, so she might as well be a sparrow or something).

I am a bit troubled with the 'command word' activation. The familiars (with the exception of the raven) cannot speak. They can communicate with their master, but that doesn't involve understandable language. So it could be made with a 30% "discount", if it's created to be used by familiars only (command word must be given in the 'familiar language'). Would this bee too cheap?

Now if only I could figure out which way to go with the familiars and Alter Self... that is, should they be able to assume only forms with Magical Beast type, or those with the Animal type (as ruled by the Sage in his polymorph column).

So, if we take the numbers Troll Wizard kindly provided us with, and pick the 'other slot' price (since a weasel running about with a tiny cloak is too silly for my tastes, the item should be something along the lines of a west, or a tiny leather cap tied around her head, or perhaps an amulet), that's 3,240 gp. Provided that the new form has flight as the only bonus quality (no other form of unusual movement (like swimming, or burrowing), no natural armour bonus, etc.), I'd say the price should be quadruppled, becoming 12,960 gp. With a 30% discount price that's 9,072 gp. I'd round that down to a flat 9,000 gp. That's 4,500 gp and 360 XP to create. Does that seem fair?

As for the magic pot. The pot is a bit more cumbersome than the spoon, weighing 10 Lbs. It would also prepare food for two, as opposed to the spoon's four medium cretures. The player originally wanted to reduce the price by including a long activation time, but that doesn't factor in, really, since this item is used outside the combat, where the amount of time doesn't matter much. So, how's this: weighs 10 Lbs, produces enough (delicious) food for two Medium creatures per day. Murlynd's Spoon has a market price of 5,400 gp, and provides an awful-tasting gruel sufficient to feed four Medium creatures. I'd say a 20% reduced price should be all right. 4,300 gp Market Price, or 2,150 gp and 172 XP to create.

The speak with animals item I'm not certain about myself. Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic works a bit similarly in that it allows you to read and understand all written and spoken languages, but it doesn't enable you to speak them. It has a Market Price of 5,200 gp. This item would allow you to speak with animals for 24 hours/day. Such an item would be of limited use to any character but a druid, but druids could find them extremely usable. 12,000 go does seem a bit excessive, but then again 4,000 gp (as suggested by the formula) seems simply too cheap. I might go for the mean value, and establish the Market Price at 8,000 gp. Which is also what Kalendraf suggested.

So, any comments?

 

[Kalendraf]

The speak with animals item I'm not certain about myself. Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic works a bit similarly in that it allows you to read and understand all written and spoken languages, but it doesn't enable you to speak them. It has a Market Price of 5,200 gp. This item would allow you to speak with animals for 24 hours/day. Such an item would be of limited use to any character but a druid, but druids could find them extremely usable. 12,000 go does seem a bit excessive, but then again 4,000 gp (as suggested by the formula) seems simply too cheap. I might go for the mean value, and establish the Market Price at 8,000 gp. Which is also what Kalendraf suggested.

So, any comments?

Something else I didn't mention is that you could make a custom Speak With Animals item be restricted to only function for Druids and Rangers, or restrict it to characters that have that spell in their spell list. Such a restriction can reduce the cost on the order of 10 to 30 percent.

The comparison with Helm of Comp Languages is valid. It's a bit of an apples to oranges problem as they don't do the exact same thing. However, your logic is correct that in many cases the Helm is superior. If you look at how much it would cost to make one of those helms based on the spells it has, it is very close to book value:

Comp Lang, 1st lvl, 10 min/level
Cost to make continuous = 1 x 1 x 2000 x 1.5 = 3000

Read Magic, 0 lvl, 10 min/level
Cost to make continuous = 1 x 1 x 2000 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 1500

Decipher Script +5
Cost = 5*5 x 100 = 2500

All of these are similar abilities in some regards which might explain why the cost is reduced from what the individual items would cost. I'd personally price the Helm closer to 7K as the above shows, since it only takes 1 body slot, but 5200 gp is not terribly underpriced for this item.

In light of that information, I really think the continous Speak with animals item should probably cost closer to 6K. Or you could add a feature to it, perhaps something like bonus to Handle Animal skill as long as you have ranks in that skill, and thereby justify a somewhat higher cost such as 8K gp.

I'm still not sure how the heck the 12K price in MotW was arrived at, but that looks more and more like a typo or the result of some bad math.

 

[Perun]

I'm still not sure how the heck the 12K price in MotW was arrived at, but that looks more and more like a typo or the result of some bad math.

Oh, the MotW price exactly follows the 3.0 formula (i.e. it doesn't include the modifier for the spell duration).

However, the caster level of the torque is set to 6th, for some reason. So, its 6 x 1 x 2,000.