A Critique of the LotR BOOKS

[The Serge]

That is something I would be very interested in discussing. Please do start that thread.

I'll get it started later on today!

 

[Femerus the Gnecro]

Well, you're reading quite a bit into the following sentence, which is the only reference to fanboys in that very first post:

reap's pretty clearly drawing a distinction between "fans" and "fanboys" -- which makes it clear to me that he's deliberately NOT saying, "all dissenting opinions are the undiscerning, irredeemable bias of a 'fanboy.'"

At least that's how I read it.

I should clarify. I posted my comment in this thread only because it seems to be the latest thread which involves an offensive use of the word 'fanboy.'

I readily admit that there are plenty of other threads which have used the term 'fanboy' in much more offensive and derogatory ways... it was just this thread which finally got me to post about it.

It's amazing how well the written language works when someone actually reads the words, instead of making up their own words that were written...

Smartass

-F

 

[Storminator]

Lets see, having the characters break into song every 10 pages over some person that lived long ago, has nothing to do with the ring they are moving into Mordor, is just there to add to the word count and IMO pointless. At least the songs in A Song of Ice and Fire have something to do with the characters/ plot. Thats what I mean by pointless stuff.

Still 3 pages from the end of this thread, so forgive me if this has been said.

I think you're completely wrong. Tolkien started by making up languages. As he became more versed in linguistics, he realized languages change of over time, in response to the history of the speakers. So he invented variants of the languages (Quenya, Sindarin, Black Speech, etc), and he invented a people to speak these languages. Then he created the world they lived in, and finally he created the stories of the peoples, which we get on three important levels: children's tales (The Hobbit), heroic epic (LoTR), and creation myths (Simirillion).

In short, the entire creation is there just to provide places to drop in the songs and poetry. And the poetry's not bad once you realize it's alliterative nordic verse.

PS

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Quote:

Inspired by the Disc 3 of TTT:EE, I am wondering if people would be interested in hearing about / debating about possible MISTAKES, and bad writing in the original Tolkein Lord of the Rings.

EndQuote


No, because there are none. Lord of the Rings was divinely inspired, and as such, can contain no errors. Any subsequent adaptations for film, however, are not, and as such, should be ignored.

 

[Camarath]

No, because there are none. Lord of the Rings was divinely inspired, and as such, can contain no errors.

That is an interesting view point. Would you mind sharing which divinity you believe inspired the Lord of the Rings?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The Festivus King inspired JrrT to write that book.

 

[Storm Raven]

That is an interesting view point. Would you mind sharing which divinity you believe inspired the Lord of the Rings?

Well, Tolkien was a pretty devout Catholic. Just sayin' . . .

 

[Desdichado]

Still 3 pages from the end of this thread, so forgive me if this has been said.

I think you're completely wrong. Tolkien started by making up languages. As he became more versed in linguistics, he realized languages change of over time, in response to the history of the speakers. So he invented variants of the languages (Quenya, Sindarin, Black Speech, etc), and he invented a people to speak these languages. Then he created the world they lived in, and finally he created the stories of the peoples, which we get on three important levels: children's tales (The Hobbit), heroic epic (LoTR), and creation myths (Simirillion).

In short, the entire creation is there just to provide places to drop in the songs and poetry. And the poetry's not bad once you realize it's alliterative nordic verse.

That's an interesting theory, but fails the test of looking at the chronology. While I have no doubt that languages were the primarily inspiration of the work -- after all, Tolkien himself said as much several times, the Lost Tales were written when Tolkien was quite young and both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were not even a twinkle in his eye in the least. The Creation mythology was really the "mythology for England" that Tolkien was working on all this time, as well as the setting for his languages, and they and the languages both evolved over the course of decades together. The Hobbit was kind of an afterthought -- it initially wasn't even intended to be part of the "Middle-earth" canon, it was just a story he wrote to amuse his kids and he borrowed some names and concepts from his mythology that he was working on. When it was eventually published and eventually was commercially successful was when he went to finally concieve of Lord of the Rings. By this point, because the Hobbit already dipped heavily into his mythology, he decided to make the Lord of the Rings concept fit as well, so he advanced the timeline several thousand years, came up with the whole concept of the "third age" and tied it in many ways to both the first and second ages, -- the first being his mythology and the second being his Atlantis concept, which he had had in mind for a long time without truly developing.

So... the rest, as they say, was history. But your neat divisions of children's story, adult story and creation myth are somewhat arbitrary -- really the creation myth was his life's work, and the Hobbit was the fluke; the idle story that kicked off the Lord of the Rings, which is his true masterpiece. Even so, the Silmarillion was what he most loved, which is why it was never published in his lifetime, because he was so concerned with getting it right (plus he never figured it would be commercially successful.) His son Christopher later put together the book we now call the Silmarillion, partly from late writings, partly from early writings, and in some very small parts, from stuff he wrote himself. The Silmarillion that was published is most definately not the Silmarillion Tolkien himself would have published had he lived long enough to do so. Likely he never would have finished or published it at all, even if he lived twenty years longer than he did, so it's a moot point anyway.

 

[Storminator]

That's an interesting theory, but fails the test of looking at the chronology. While I have no doubt that languages were the primarily inspiration of the work -- after all, Tolkien himself said as much several times, the Lost Tales were written when Tolkien was quite young and both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were not even a twinkle in his eye in the least.

I don't for a moment believe that Tolkien completed each step before moving to the next. I can see where you'd think that from my post, but it wasn't my intent. All elements of his creation underwent nearly continuous revision. But the essential ordering of importance that I outlined holds.

The first work of the Book of Lost Tales was a poem. Everything else followed on.

So... the rest, as they say, was history. But your neat divisions of children's story, adult story and creation myth are somewhat arbitrary -- really the creation myth was his life's work, and the Hobbit was the fluke; the idle story that kicked off the Lord of the Rings, which is his true masterpiece.

If a piece of mythology is important, these are the three methods it gets transmitted. I find it fascinating that Tolkien hit all three levels of text in creating his own mythic world. Whether that happened by design or by accident is less important than the fact that it happened.

PS

 

[Salthanas]

That's an interesting theory, but fails the test of looking at the chronology. While I have no doubt that languages were the primarily inspiration of the work -- after all, Tolkien himself said as much several times, the Lost Tales were written when Tolkien was quite young and both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were not even a twinkle in his eye in the least. The Creation mythology was really the "mythology for England" that Tolkien was working on all this time, as well as the setting for his languages, and they and the languages both evolved over the course of decades together. The Hobbit was kind of an afterthought -- it initially wasn't even intended to be part of the "Middle-earth" canon, it was just a story he wrote to amuse his kids and he borrowed some names and concepts from his mythology that he was working on. When it was eventually published and eventually was commercially successful was when he went to finally concieve of Lord of the Rings. By this point, because the Hobbit already dipped heavily into his mythology, he decided to make the Lord of the Rings concept fit as well, so he advanced the timeline several thousand years, came up with the whole concept of the "third age" and tied it in many ways to both the first and second ages, -- the first being his mythology and the second being his Atlantis concept, which he had had in mind for a long time without truly developing.

So... the rest, as they say, was history. But your neat divisions of children's story, adult story and creation myth are somewhat arbitrary -- really the creation myth was his life's work, and the Hobbit was the fluke; the idle story that kicked off the Lord of the Rings, which is his true masterpiece. Even so, the Silmarillion was what he most loved, which is why it was never published in his lifetime, because he was so concerned with getting it right (plus he never figured it would be commercially successful.) His son Christopher later put together the book we now call the Silmarillion, partly from late writings, partly from early writings, and in some very small parts, from stuff he wrote himself. The Silmarillion that was published is most definately not the Silmarillion Tolkien himself would have published had he lived long enough to do so. Likely he never would have finished or published it at all, even if he lived twenty years longer than he did, so it's a moot point anyway.

I was under the impression that Tolkien was inventing langauges pretty much non stop since he was about 11. In one of his essays he pretty much refers to the fact that in inventing a language you spawn a mythology. I don't know when exactly he started either the first elements of the mythology or the languages but the impression I had was that they developed in tandem. If anything its more likely the langauges came first due to the way Tolkien constructed his story telling elements.