A detailed town in the DMG: your preference?

[The Little Raven]

If the book were titled "introduction to Dungeon Mastering" then I would find the analogy useful. Otherwise, it seems to be that it assumes that thing which is debateable.

Guide is defined, in a book sense, as "Something, such as a pamphlet, that offers basic information or instruction."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=guide

A Dungeon Master's Guide, it would stand to reason, offers basic information or instruction on the subject of being a Dungeon Master.

Change is not better by virtue of the fact that it was a change, so this establishes nothing.

No, change is not better simply by being change. However, the books have become better, because they reorganize them based on feedback from the previous one. The reason the DMGs have more tables now is because they've been requested.

Who's we? You don't mean me. We would have to agree on what those mistakes were. The previous editions used dice. That's not semantics, that's an appeal for you to clarify.

We, as the gaming community. And mistakes, I mean design elements that we later figure out are flawed, and fix. Demi-human level limits. Huge disparities between power level of classes. All things from previous editions that we've fixed, because we, as the community, have fixed them. The community spawns both the developers/designers and the feedback for them to work with.

Do they? That's the whole point. You're assuming the thing that is the point of debate. Including a module within the DMG IMO is *not* getting better about how to organize the game.

It's not a module. It's a sample town that you can use as a jumping off point for any module or plot hook. Need a place for them to restock supplies? Here's a place you don't need to put any effort into.

Beginner material and example material (also useful to experienced people) IMO is best handled in another book.

Not by the definition of "guide."

And, again, you're not understanding that forcing NEW people to buy MORE things is a disincentive for them to get into DMing. Advanced players will already consider buying more products from the get-go, especially if they are something geared towards something they particularly want (like underwater adventuring rules).

My point is to illustrate that the concept that you have of what consitutes appropriate material for the DMG and what doesn't is not fully developed IMO. For example, your criteria does not exclude dice AFAICT. I think your use of the word semantics here is just making plain that you're not understanding what I'm saying.

The DMG is a book. Period. It provides advice, additional rules, and examples to help you be a DM. Everything else required to play the game is still required.

Why would my criteria for written material include dice, considering dice are not written material?

Ok, so you make a distinction between new DMs and new DMs that haven't played RPGs before.

Except the word I used was "players." The Basic Set has always been to get new players interested in the game, so that they will then go on to buy the books.

And the distinction is so firm that trying to write to both audiences is inappropriate, and yet you won't make a distinction between exprienced and inexprienced DMs? I don't see why one is worth it and the other isn't.

What are you talking about? I make a distinction between experienced and inexperienced (aka new) DMs. That's my whole point. The first DMG should be written so that an inexperienced DM will learn from it, not so an experienced DM gets extra stuff.

No, this is overstating what I'm trying to say. I'm not running a space exploration campaign but if they want to throw in a page or two about laser guns into the DMG I'm fine with that. What I don't want to see is what I saw in the DMG2, which was the Town of Saltmarsh. I would have just rather bought a module for Saltmarsh.

That's because you're an experienced DM that doesn't need an example town.

No, I'm trying to establish something else. I think we both agree that new people - whether new to the hobby or new to DnD in particular, or new to DMing, or whatever need appropriate resources. What we disagree with is where you want this information to be.

Exactly.

You think that an inexperienced/new DM should have to buy more things than an experienced one in order to be able to learn and become experienced. I disagree.

I'm a consumer of the DMG, my opinion counts for nothing more than that, and expressing it is designed to let other people know my perspective (and AFAICT) some others on this thread.

You'll get no dispute about that.

I would bet, with no evidence other than anecdotal, that experienced DMs are far more likely to bring new people into the game than a DMG is. Your comments about experienced players are overly dismissive of the contributions that veterans make to the longevity of the hobby.

The DMG does not introduce new players. It's supposed to be a guide for the DM on how to run the game. Advice, new rules, tables, examples, all that. If you want to learn how to DM the game via book, the Dungeon Master's Guide is the one to use.

Yes, IMO a new DM should buy a module. Each encounter area could break down the rules for each encounter. Again, this is mostly about where such information belongs. I just don't think that the DMG is going to provide the information to a level of detail sufficient for what you're saying the purpose should be.

So, while every other hobby starts cheap for novices and becomes more expensive for experts, you want D&D to be super-expensive for a new person to get into and learn to run, so grognards can get in cheap since they have experience to draw on? Great way to not grow the hobby.

Do you think that Saltmarsh in the DMG II is sufficient for a new DM?

For a base town, yes. That way the new DM can focus on the monsters you'll fight and the caves you'll explore.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have a link?

Read the 4th Edition page at ENWorld.

What would they put in a 2009 DMG that wasn't in 2008? Would it be like the DMG2 with rules variants?

Probably.

 

[PeterWeller]

I think it would be nice. Examples are always nice. As long as it doesn't take up some ridiculous page count, I see nothing wrong with a sample "iconic" town. Honestly, I'm surprised at some of the negativity directed towards this idea. Most of the DMG's contents are dead weight to the experienced DM anyway. This is because the book has served a dual role since its inception. It is, at once, a guide to becoming a DM and a reference for the existing DM. The pages devoted to the former have always outweighed those devoted to the latter, and that's because most of the rules are already in the PHB.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

As I said elsewhere, I'd rather it wasn't a part of the actual DMG itself - but I'll qualify that and add if the town description is going to take up more than 5-10 pages. If it's going to be longer than that, I think it'd be cool to make it a separate module that comes bundled with the DMG. Same goes for a sample adventure. If we're talking less than 10 pages, that's a lot more palatable to me.

 

[Klaus]

I thought the idea of having a town in the DMG2 was great, when I heard about it.

In practice, I haven't gotten a lick of use from it.

I'm fine with 10 pages, max, on a town. If it's a whole chapter, like Saltmarsh, then it stinks.

What if it's a 10-page chapter?



I'd go even farther. Let's say Starter Town turns out to be Homlett.

I'd detail Homlett, AND I'd include the Moathouse. So you get a sample base of operations and a sample dungeon.

Okay, maybe not the Moathouse. Maybe the Dungeon of the Fire Opal.

But definitely a sample dungeon in there. Enough for two sessions of play.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Next Poll: Pick the Town!

Saltmarsh. Or Hommlet. Perhaps Shadowdale or Mistledale.

 

[gizmo33]

So, while every other hobby starts cheap for novices and becomes more expensive for experts, you want D&D to be super-expensive for a new person to get into and learn to run, so grognards can get in cheap since they have experience to draw on? Great way to not grow the hobby.

No, none of what you're saying applies to the boxed basic DnD set, and since that is an example I've used I'm stumped as to why you think I'd want the game to be super-expensive for new people.

The way I see it, this basically boils down to the problem of trying to write for two audiences at once. I don't think there's a way through this by parsing the definition of a general purpose word like "guide". You're either going to do a bad job for one of the audiences, or a bad job for both. You're not going to do a good beginner DM book that's also a good experienced DM book. Now maybe experienced DMs are willing to put up with more junk than new people because of inertia or loyalty or whatever but I would hate to see WotC go to that well too often.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

it's a good idea - and I comment it to add an adventure (linked?) with a local region map and all. But keep it simple and basic.

And at the very, very least, as a free supplement offered online.

We are ALL newbies at first... some may learn 'à la dure', but such things are very usefull for most new guys at dming.

 

[TerraDave]

A classic ENWorld result: many posts against, a good number of votes for



(the town in the DMG in this case)

 

[The Little Raven]

No, none of what you're saying applies to the boxed basic DnD set, and since that is an example I've used I'm stumped as to why you think I'd want the game to be super-expensive for new people.

Because you seem to be saying that an experienced DM should only have to buy 3 things: PHB, DMG, MM; while you say that an inexperienced one should have to buy 4 things: PHB, DMG, MM, and either a Basic Set or some kind of module or something for examples, simply so that the experienced DM isn't given "wasted space" on some example town.

The way I see it, this basically boils down to the problem of trying to write for two audiences at once.

You seem to think that the three first books for the game shouldn't cater to new gamers, and shouldn't be the access point for new players and DMs to learn their respective roles. So, your argument appears to be that the core books should cater to returning gamers and new gamers should be forced to go elsewhere to learn the basics.

I don't think there's a way through this by parsing the definition of a general purpose word like "guide".

When looking at the definition of guide, it is abundantly obvious which definition applies to a written book.

You're either going to do a bad job for one of the audiences, or a bad job for both. You're not going to do a good beginner DM book that's also a good experienced DM book.

Yeah you can. You provide all the tools an experienced DM needs to generate NPCs, towns, items, random encounters, etc... then you provide EXAMPLES for the inexperienced DMs so that they can see it in action. Simple. Easy. Useful for DMs of both flavors.

Now maybe experienced DMs are willing to put up with more junk than new people because of inertia or loyalty or whatever but I would hate to see WotC go to that well too often.

It seems you'd rather see WotC drive away potential new gamers and DMs by catering the bare minimum game towards those with previous experience, instead of gearing it towards teaching the game to people.

 

[Belorin]

A classic ENWorld result: many posts against, a good number of votes for



(the town in the DMG in this case)

That's mainly because those for the idea stated in the poll just vote and those against would rather try to convince them not to by posting long and mostly confusing reasons for their POV. (I'm generalizing here, some con posters are are quite eloquent.)
These con posters will then proceed to badger any pro posters by constantly repeating their POV and taking out of context any statement made by the pro poster.
Unfortunately some pro poster will try and defend their choice and become involved in a long and eventually trivial debate where they just keep repeating and rephrasing the same points over and over, ad nauseum.
Luckily, these tend to be the same posters from thread to thread so you can just skip over their posts to get to the serious posts.

Sorry, I just get tired of scrolling past what seems to be vicious circle of debate. I'm hoping that the many con posters who post their reasons and try to see thing fom the other persons POV and the pro posters who do the same realize I'm not targeting them just the one or two that tend to make reading a thread work rather than fun, like it should be.

All that said, I voted for a sample town in the DMG because it sounds like a good idea for fledgling DMs to have as an example.

Bel