A detailed town in the DMG: your preference?

[delericho]

Yes. Not only that, but it should include a complete (short) adventure, too.

But I've never heard anyone describe {the existing DMG} as new-player friendly. To the contrary, it could be downright new player hostile.

Agreed. And that should change, IMO.

 

[MojoGM]

Yup, I'm in favor of it and will use it.

 

[gizmo33]

Towns aren't newbie friendly, which is precisely why newbies shouldn't be given help in running towns?

Giving information about a town is not the same thing as information about running a town. The amount of text needed to describe something like that, explaining all of the contingencies and stuff, would meet or exceed the purely descriptive text. And as some have said, they're just going to wind up cannibalizing it anyway, which means raw ideas are going to be used and the rest of it discarded.

Thus such a town IMO is going to try to be too many things to too many different people and probably wind up being mediocre for most everyone's purposes.

No newbie needs a town for anything at all up until the point where they run a town adventure?

A description of buildings and the people that live in them is not going to help a newbie a whole lot.

Examples are good to have.

So are dice. So is candy corn. I'm not saying examples shouldn't be available somewhere.

Bring on the examples.

Yea, but wouldn't it make more sense to produce a "d20 guide to iconic settings"? If there really is demand for such a thing then I would think it would be profitable on it's own.

In any case, I would think a design guide about how to design a generic castle is still more appropriate for the DMG than a specific example. Then again someone at WotC would have to crack a history book, and after the Arms and Equipment Guide was listing barley at 1 gp a pound I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

 

[The Little Raven]

The names "Players Handbook" and "Dungeon Master's Guide" can have a connotation that doesn't describe what you're saying.

The DMG has the connotation of a guide to being the dungeon master. It should assume that you don't know how to do it, and should strive to make it easier to get into by providing examples and play aids.

 

[gizmo33]

The DMG has the connotation of a guide to being the dungeon master. It should assume that you don't know how to do it, and should strive to make it easier to get into by providing examples and play aids.

As I said - I don't think a town example would even qualify as the most useful example. Furthermore I don't even think a 12-page town description would be the most useful of town examples.

Also, why not just put out a seperate module? Maybe all you guys don't actually remember KotB and the old boxed sets?

Then again, why not just combine the PHB, MM, and DMG and a dozen adventure modules into one huge book since subject isn't really an issue? In fact, why do I own tons of smaller books when I could have just one gigantic book with everything in it?

 

[The Little Raven]

As I said - I don't think a town example would even qualify as the most useful example. Furthermore I don't even think a 12-page town description would be the most useful of town examples.

To you. You're an (I assume) experienced DM, since you seem to be saying that things for new DMs should be removed from the DMG so you don't have to pay for them. The first DMG should never assume the person cracking the book is an experienced DM. It should assume that this is the first time you've ever approached the topic and proceed from there.

Also, why not just put out a seperate module? Maybe all you guys don't actually remember KotB and the old boxed sets?

Because making a new DM purchase more products in order to get examples to help him means less new DMs. A section on town/city generation and an example "point of light" village is much better for a new DM, especially one that wants to focus his efforts on getting a hold of designing his own adventuring sites rather than worrying about fleshing out the place where the players will run when they need to recover.

Then again, why not just combine the PHB, MM, and DMG and a dozen adventure modules into one huge book since subject isn't really an issue? In fact, why do I own tons of smaller books when I could have just one gigantic book with everything in it?

Try to stay relevant. Having an example of a starting adventuring town in the GUIDE TO BEING A FREAKING DUNGEON MASTER makes sense, since the book should TEACH YOU HOW TO BE A DM and EXAMPLES ARE ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO TEACH PEOPLE. Just like the Player's Handbook has everything you need to PLAY THE GAME. And the Monster Manual is CHOCK FULL OF MONSTERS.

It's far more relevant to the first DMG than having underwater adventuring rules, since more adventures take place out of a town than they do 20,000 leagues under the sea.

 

[gizmo33]

The first DMG should never assume the person cracking the book is an experienced DM. It should assume that this is the first time you've ever approached the topic and proceed from there.

Should it? It's one thing to not assume expertise, but another to then assume complete noobness as the only alternative.

The first time I cracked open a rulebook, it was along side the Keep on the Borderlands. In fact, the Village of Hommlet followed soon after that, and was much more compelling as a settled location than the Keep was (with it's relatively faceless and nameless inhabitants). When I was done with Hommlet, I made up my own Hommlet rip-off and ran that. At that point I was glad to not have to drag around my copy of Hommlet. Nor was any experienced DnDer forced to buy these things that I was using at the time.

Because making a new DM purchase more products in order to get examples to help him means less new DMs.

Well the DM needs dice, doesn't he? What happened to the concept of the Basic Set? The first couple of levels, all of the monsters of appropriate level, a battle mat, some sample miniatures, some dice, and a sample town, dungeon (or both) all in one box. Why would a noob be sold on a 200 page monster manual for a game he's never played?

Try to stay relevant.

Try to understand what I'm writing.

Having an example of a starting adventuring town in the GUIDE TO BEING A FREAKING DUNGEON MASTER makes sense, since the book should TEACH YOU HOW TO BE A DM and EXAMPLES ARE ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO TEACH PEOPLE.

My road map doesn't teach me how to drive. Since you guys are defining the DMG as a guide for new dungeon masters then I guess the rest follows logically. Have at it.

Just like the Player's Handbook has everything you need to PLAY THE GAME.

It doesn't, like I've said. If it did then I would just buy the PHB and not the rest.

And the Monster Manual is CHOCK FULL OF MONSTERS.

Now that you're yelling this is all much clearer. I suppose the monster manual should have a sample adventure in the back featuring some of the monsters.

It's far more relevant to the first DMG than having underwater adventuring rules, since more adventures take place out of a town than they do 20,000 leagues under the sea.

"The first DMG" ?! Are there others? Part of my opinion stems from the perspective of looking at the DMG from the core rules. Why be subject to another half-dozen "d20 guides to underwater adventuring" just because WotC doesn't feel like establishing some core rules. This whole 4E pill would go down easier if it weren't just going to be a rehash of the same basic ideas as have existed in the prior DnD editions with some tweaks for the new rules mechanics.

I know everyone's a little panicky about the future of the hobby, but a mad rush to cater to your concept of a new gamer at the expense of veterans IMO is not desireable. I'm not saying there can't be sidebars and stuff in the DMG for new DMs.

 

[Nifft]

Whatever.

If it's good*, then I want it. If it's bad**, then I don't want it. But this is impossible to determine in advance.

But they're welcome to fill up the space previously used for Cursed Magic Items, Intelligent Items, and the prestige classes Shadowdancer, Elven Arcane Archer and Heirophant.

Cheers, -- N

*) useful to me
**) not useful to me

 

[Flynn]

The way I figure it, WOTC could publish a town as a module or as a web enhancement. I'd rather not have a module in my DMG, when those pages could be filled with more stuff on world building, adventure creation, villian creation, and other, more widely applicable, material.

But I realize that this is only my opinion.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Ahnehnois]

I didn't like the idea of using ~30 pages of the DMG II on a town. Once I read the book, I found some of the stuff interesting-there were some plot ideas. Nonetheless, I would rather not see something like that in a DMG.

I don't even like the sample NPCs or encounter tables from the 3.5 DMG and DMG II. Put statted people and statted towns in adventures or other supplements. It's a *guide* to DMing, not "DMing done for you".